[00:00] Valerie Beck: Rise, Renew, reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where every story ignites hope and healing. My awesome guest today is Katherine Roessler, a sober artist and creative who believes that we are all artists, that play is essential, and that creation in any form is valuable, transformative, and healing.
[00:20] We met at an online community building event for creatives and immediately hit it off with some deep discussions about what it means to be an artist, how to build community, and.
[00:29] And how to heal from our deeper inner blocks. What I love about today's episode is that it is a conversation where we both bump up against the unknown, against our personal, limiting beliefs.
[00:40] And rather than avoid the discomfort, we use our discourse to explore some of the core issues facing our generation in a world set up to keep us lonely, jaded, and distracted.
[00:50] After you finish this episode, our request to you is that you connect with us and let us know how we can help you rediscover your community. Gentle fire in the darkest night of.
[01:00] Katherine Roesler: Phoenix Birds, it's ready for flight Shadows.
[01:06] Valerie Beck: May come try to tear you apart but you're the. All right, everyone. Welcome back to from the Ashes. I have my guest Katherine Roessler here with me today. She's from the Toronto area, and we are going to create this podcast episode, kind of like a piece of art.
[01:22] We're going to riff. We're going to talk about community healing and art.
[01:26] So first off, welcome, Katherine, to the show.
[01:29] Katherine Roesler: Hi. Thank you for having me. I love. I love that you said we're gonna create this podcast like a piece of art. That's. That's really fun.
[01:36] Valerie Beck: Yeah, I. I'm really excited to see what comes up, what we create together, because the conversation that we've had previously, I. I think it was just so fruitful. And the way that you think about art, it's just so effective for getting us to dig deeper about things.
[01:51] And so obviously you have a story behind that. Right. So tell the audience a little bit about yourself and share the origins of how you've become the artist that you are today.
[02:03] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. So I think, like, if I. If I'm speaking from the art lens, my joy from art came. I remember in kindergarten, it was like, at the cut and paste table that was.
[02:14] It was a table that we had where you had, like, all different sorts of leftover materials, like ribbons and tissue boxes, and you would just go and, like, glue things together.
[02:23] And I would come home and I would have, like, show my mom, like, this is a camera. This is a rocket ship. And I just have a really vivid memory of being There and having the freedom to create without,
[02:37] like, in art class, where it goes, okay, we're gonna make this today. And that became very structured. So I have such a deep connection to like the freedom that of that memory.
[02:48] My parents also met kind of in art class in art school and university. So their art is like, around my house. So I always kind of as a kid was like, why are you guys not artists?
[03:01] Like, what's going on? Like, that is the coolest job in the world. Why aren't you doing that? And it wasn't until later when I realized, okay, like, it's actually really difficult to be a full time artist to follow that dream because money comes in and internal criticism comes in and like,
[03:18] those are a lot of blocks that like, block you from owning the. You know, it blocked me personally from like owning the title of artist. In university, I really struggled with the idea of like, when I realized like, money and like commercialization was coming into my art practice.
[03:38] Cause I was studying sociology at the same time.
[03:42] I was learning about like over, you know, like how humans are destroying the environment and how, you know, like, there's landfills of like, fabric across the world. I'm like, so why should I make more stuff to exist?
[03:57] And I battled with that a little bit. So I eventually, like, I would go in and out of. I'd be like, should I do the art program? And then I'd go into sociology.
[04:06] So I didn't fully commit to my original application into like studio art.
[04:13] And also during that time, I was really. Throughout my. Throughout my teen years and in university, I was really struggling with substance abuse. I like, fell into it at an early age, like 14,
[04:25] and me and the boyfriend I had in high school, that's what a lot of our relationship revolved around. And it definitely disconnected me from myself in a lot of ways.
[04:36] And I didn't really completely come back to my desire of like, hey, no, like, I want to be an artist. Like, I am an artist. Until 2017, I think I was.
[04:49] I graduated university.
[04:51] I had like, traveled a bit. I had had another kind of like, bender. As much as it was fun, the lows were so low. Like, I would. Was so depressed, suicidal.
[05:03] Like, just. I couldn't stop this cycle from happening. And in 2017, like, I came home, I didn't really. Didn't have a job, decided to like, shave my head and was like, like, I just.
[05:17] I need to stop. Like, I need to let go of this and change.
[05:23] And in 2017 is when I started to like, draw again. And I Started to just draw from that space of like a childlike state of mind from that space that I knew from kindergarten.
[05:35] Instead of all the art classes that I took over the years, it was a lot more free and just like letting me process my emotions and like from this creative space that wasn't bound by the ideas that I.
[05:50] What it meant to be an artist. It was just whatever I was creating was an artist. Yeah, was me being an artist. And around that same time I, I had a part time job at, as a cashier at Whole Foods.
[06:05] And a lot of the people I worked with were also artists. And one guy I met I actually reconnected with a couple years ago, but he said he's like, oh, you just have to call yourself an artist.
[06:15] Just, you know, just declare it. And I finally, like, it took me, like, it took me years and even still I ponder with this, I'm an artist. But I decided I was like, okay, like I'm, I'm declaring to myself in this, in that, in that moment, like, I am an artist.
[06:32] And it was kind of the same story of when I was getting sober. Like it didn't just happen one day. It was like a continual process of deciding again and again and again.
[06:43] Like I was kind of being like, I am, I am sober. Like, I am, I'm sober and I'm choosing this. And also had to be like, I'm an artist, I'm an artist.
[06:51] And it was like a continual, like it wasn't. Yeah, it's not like this, this. You just, once you say it and you believe it. It was an ongoing, continually, ongoing affirmation of self.
[07:04] Yeah.
[07:04] Valerie Beck: Oh my gosh. Yes. I love that. And so much of what you said is very relatable and I love this idea of that you're choosing to be the artist and you're choosing yourself.
[07:18] But because I had the same journey,
[07:20] there's a lot of shame, I think that comes from trying to be an artist and not, quote, unquote, making it right.
[07:29] Katherine Roesler: Oh my gosh.
[07:30] Valerie Beck: And like, and then you have that negative self talk of like, how dare I call myself an artist? But the, you know, it's. The artist precedes the validation. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
[07:41] But that's so difficult in a world where the monetary value is often put first.
[07:49] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, totally.
[07:51] It's, it's, it's interesting that we aren't able to step into that. And it's, it's also, I feel like it's such a common struggle of artists like the struggling artist is like the narrative that, you know you're never gonna make it.
[08:07] And I mean,
[08:09] certain people, maybe at one point in time that was true. But I even think, like, no, like, artists have always been present, maybe just in different contexts in different ways.
[08:18] But it is like this narrative that's been given to us. And I wonder. I'm very. I'm like, where does this come from? Like, where have we learned this. This narrative?
[08:30] Part of. I think what comes up for me immediately is like, you know, we're told like in a lot of. I don't know if it's in school or certain parents and generations, it's kind of like, know that's it's not a successful path.
[08:44] And the success meaning money, which is true, like we do need money to survive and thrive.
[08:50] But also the idea that like, in a lot of like, spaces,
[08:56] the, the arts and culture has been like, taken away, which is, I think, where like, you know, the community comes in. It's like, I know I've. I've heard this narrative come up in different places, but like, you know, maybe a building or a residential area is built.
[09:12] You know, I live in the suburbs, but it's not built with like, the community and like, arts in mind. It's just built with efficiency and success and production. But it forgets about like, our humanity.
[09:23] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[09:24] Katherine Roesler: So I feel like it's somehow wrapped up in that like, cultural story.
[09:29] Valerie Beck: Yes. So there are a couple of points there I want to discuss with you.
[09:35] One that you said is this idea of this starving artist thing being put on artists.
[09:41] So recently, after having wrapped up a project where I was around a lot of dancers that make art as a living or partial living,
[09:51] is that those who are doing it,
[09:54] they might not be like making the most money,
[09:59] but they've accepted and embraced the reality because their art makes. Fulfills them. Right. And externally it might be that they will never have a mortgage or they might never like, be able to afford certain luxuries that, you know, people who choose like a.
[10:19] A 9 to 5 would. But does that mean that they're lacking or that they're not wealthy? And I really want to question that because there are a lot of people who make tons more money that feel like they're a slave to society and that they feel they're very trapped and they,
[10:35] they don't have self expression.
[10:39] And so I don't know, there is kind of this objective reality that, yeah, we are, we are quote unquote, sacrificing, but we are sacrificing by making our self expression sacred.
[10:50] Katherine Roesler: Mm.
[10:51] Valerie Beck: And it doesn't mean that we are destined to have a life of poverty.
[10:56] At least I don't think so. But I think in order for us to go beyond scarcity, we need to overcome this paradigm of, like, we are lacking.
[11:07] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, I. I definitely. I definitely think it's something to overcome. And I think, like, maybe that first step is kind of. Yeah. Like, accepting that maybe this is part of the reality.
[11:19] And then also, I feel like part of it is also stepping into the realization. Like, I feel like they both truly can exist together. Like, I feel like you can be a successful artist and like, in.
[11:31] In both the. The fulfillment and richness in, like, in that sacrifice, but also in living a life where you aren't maybe worried about, okay, where's the next paycheck gonna come from?
[11:45] But you probably can't reach that point until you, like, move through that. That blockage of, like,
[11:52] starving artists. You need to accept it first to, like, then come out on the other side of. Of that narrative.
[12:02] Valerie Beck: Yes. And I think this is kind of the paradox of what we would think of as, like, abundance, mindset, or even just, like, manifestation is that if you, in the back of your mind are telling yourself that you doubt the possibility,
[12:17] the doubt is gonna overtake your possibility.
[12:22] Katherine Roesler: Cause. Yeah. Doubt then is what is you. You are making that your possibility. It's whatever. Yeah. That limiting belief becomes what you manifest. Yeah.
[12:34] Valerie Beck: Yeah, yeah.
[12:37] All right, so let's set that aside for a second, because there was another thing that you said about your journey as an artist that. That I think is very. And it's significant for a lot of people who do decide to be artists or choose to be artists.
[12:50] And. And it's this idea of freedom, right. Being in the kindergarten room and having the freedom to just, like, do whatever and having your art reflects your potential,
[13:02] like what you're feeling, et cetera, et cetera. And then having kind of, like, as we start to build on that, like, having kind of these constructs of confinement that, like, take us away from that true freedom.
[13:16] And so. And the same goes for my journey as a dancer, too. Like, I used to just, like, do whatever I want in the living room, perform for my parents, Right.
[13:24] And then, like, learning technique, like the technique of jazz or the technique of hip hop and the technique of popping and locking, which is all great because I learned a lot of culture through that too.
[13:35] But then realizing that, like, as a unique individual,
[13:41] I don't think that the power of being an artist is just to emulate one style or one technique. The power of the artist is to find the freedom by honing and taking in technique so that like, whatever comes out becomes more powerful.
[13:59] So what do you think of that and like, how, you know, how have you been able to tap back into your freedom as you've grown as an artist?
[14:09] Katherine Roesler: Yeah,
[14:11] yeah, no, that I, I think that's really interesting and I can relate too because like, I also, I did ballet and I danced a lot growing up. And I kind of, I see it, it's almost like in, in the creative and art space, it's like it's a cookie cutter that could fit in whatever realm that you,
[14:28] you partake in.
[14:30] And it's almost like when I think back to like the structure that comes with technique, there's definitely a lot of value in that. Like, you learn, you can learn so many different skills or things that you didn't know existed.
[14:44] You can learn like history and culture and all those things that are really valuable. I think what,
[14:52] maybe there's another part there of the. Are you meeting or like, how well do you master that technique? And if you don't master it, then you are not then good enough or like this idea, like if you don't, if you aren't perfect at this.
[15:07] And that probably is a bit of both the outward narrative of a teacher or some, you know, getting a grade, whether that be in a, whatever exam you're taking or a test or you know, an art class, you get like a B instead of an A.
[15:23] And so having that like external critique and then also applying your self worth to that critique. And I think that's like where you apply your self worth because as an artist, like in the freedom, self expression, it's like, well, there is no, there is nothing to mark a critique because it is just what it is.
[15:44] Like it is in its pure form and it can't or I don't think it should be judged. It is just there to exist. But, but when we add that like, you know, refinement and critique, which can be argued is helpful in many ways, but it can also be harmful when you feel like you're your art and then somebody's like,
[16:03] oh, well, it's not good enough. And then it makes you think, oh, I'm not good enough because you said my art isn't good enough. And they almost go hand in hand.
[16:13] Yeah. So I think that's where I felt and like all in dance, I never felt good enough. I never felt good. I still struggle with that, those thoughts. But now I Think it's in recognizing that it's not a fact and kind of reaffirming like, oh, that's not true.
[16:31] And like. Like seeing when those subconscious, like, programming returns. But you have to remind yourself, like, oh, that's not. That's not true. Like, I don't align with that. I don't believe that.
[16:40] Even though you might be saying it to yourself and thinking it. Yeah, yeah. I forget what the other part of your question was. I don't know if that answered it.
[16:50] Valerie Beck: I think that answered it. I think I'll just. I'll reflect back on what you just said, because I think when.
[16:58] Now that I've grown as an artist that I really like. I really value authenticity. And like, when I want to create or I want. When I want to connect with somebody's art, I'm no longer looking for a skill or looking for ways to critique it, because I just feel like.
[17:14] Well, that. That's not.
[17:17] Like, I just get to feel better about myself. I guess if I sit there as a critic, but what if I sat there as just a mirror? Or what if I sat there looking for that person's humanity?
[17:32] Right? Like, then my experience of the art is going to be completely different,
[17:36] and then I get to. To understand that person more. And it's like, those are two completely different mindsets of how we consume art. Right. And we can't control the way that other people consume art.
[17:47] We can really only control what we put out.
[17:51] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, we. We can't control what others are think. We can only control what we do and what we think and how we choose to exist. And I. I think it's interesting too, like, how maybe.
[18:06] Because sometimes I definitely notice myself. The tr. The critique part of my mind will come in. Or that, like, more. Let's just embrace for whatever it is. And probably depending on the environment and context.
[18:17] Like, I know I went to Art Basel Miami three years ago,
[18:24] and that it was insane. Like, it was so much visual art all day, every day. Like, it was as if I was experiencing, like, all of the image, like, all of the art images I've ever seen all at once.
[18:41] Like, from every gallery, Instagram, Pinterest. Like, it was just so much. And I started to notice. Like, at first I was like, wow, this is so cool. And then over time,
[18:51] I started to be like, wait, I actually don't like that, but I do like this. No, I don't like that. And it. I felt exhausted from trying to just like,
[19:02] see it all. Like, it was overwhelming. I. I Don't know if I would return because of the intensity.
[19:09] But I do. I do find it interesting how I can see, like, I'll see sometimes in myself that critique come and go. And I also don't know if it's always.
[19:20] Is it like, I don't. Maybe there isn't a good or a bad. It is just sometimes it is, but maybe it's in,
[19:27] like, in what moments in our. Like, especially in. In our youth, you know, like, our brains are developing the most in, like, the first seven years.
[19:36] So if you have that critique at maybe certain pivotal points, that is when it can be more harmful, you know, when you're still creating that narrative of self.
[19:48] Because I do. Like, of course, like, we're not all. We're not going to like, every piece of art or every creation, but maybe that. That point of critique or even, like, how to learn how to deal with the critique of being an artist.
[20:02] I think I definitely see this conversation a lot now online with friends or like, just the. Like, if you're a content creator and you get, like. If you're anybody on the Internet and you get mean comments, like, that is like a form of critique.
[20:16] It's. People just. It has nothing to do with you. It is all to do with the person saying it. But, like, learning how to. How do we build those skills to be, like, okay, that's not for me.
[20:27] Like, that's you. Like, I'm. My art is whole in it. It's just not for you. Like, if you don't like it, then that's okay. It just wasn't meant.
[20:37] Yeah. Wasn't meant for you to connect with.
[20:40] Valerie Beck: Yes. So let's talk about that. Right? And art and community. Because at the end of the day, we are artists that want to connect.
[20:52] And I've been thinking about this too. It's like, I can dance by myself,
[20:58] but there's an emptiness to it.
[21:02] I think, like, at some point I'm looking for an exchange and people can consume my art. They can watch. They can watch me on stage. But that's different,
[21:17] right? A community is one where there's discourse.
[21:22] At least that's my. My take on it right now.
[21:26] And, you know, since we had such a great discussion on community before,
[21:31] why do you feel like the concept of community is so important? What does that mean to you and what does that mean for your art?
[21:41] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, so I think the concept of community I've come to again over and over the years, and I think it almost like, in my mind, I see it as maybe a Spectrum or like a mind map of like community over here and like individualism.
[22:00] So it may be a scale.
[22:02] And I remember when I was first like really struggling with my own mental health or when I was. If this was years ago. But I read, I think it was a book called Lost Connections.
[22:12] And in the book the author talks about how we should be healing our mental health and sickness and like addiction and. And in the book there was like a couple examples.
[22:25] One example that really stood out to me was like, there was a group of people that were all struggling with their mental health and they were assigned to build a community garden together.
[22:36] And like they were to participate in the creation and the maintenance as like a group of people. And like, over time this was like the tool to alleviate them from their,
[22:50] from like their illness.
[22:52] And another story was like,
[22:55] I forget what country it was in, but like there was a farmer and he lost his crops for the season and so his like community bought him a cow so then he could sell milk.
[23:05] You know, it was, it was this like learning that I had. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. When you know, the healing that I was doing, it was like, you go to the doctors and it was very like, here's the medicine.
[23:16] Or like go to therapy. So it's. It was one on one or like this pill to fix you.
[23:23] And over the years I kind of was like, I've come more and more into like this realization. I was like, like, there's something missing. Like, I don't think that's it, but these are the only tools that I have.
[23:32] So I'm going to use them because I need support. I'm not saying that they aren't useful, but I think what was missing was that community aspect. And then more recently like I had, funny enough, so when I was in Miami, I actually had Covid.
[23:50] And since then I've been. I've had long Covid. So I've had symptoms that have lingered since I had the infection. And so it really forced me again to like, it was like the universe forced me to be like, okay, you need to slow down.
[24:03] You need to like, take care of yourself and your health instead of grinding to, you know, become this artist or successful person that you imagine. And I started learning about like the nervous system.
[24:17] And one key factor in that that I learned is like, we heal. Like your nervous system regulates by like observing other humans. And like you, you regulate your nervous system with touch and all this stuff.
[24:29] And like I. It's almost like, it's like of course, like this makes so much sense. But I, I didn't really ever have the physical understanding. Like, it, it came to me of like, oh, this is like, this is really what's missing.
[24:44] Like, this is why there's so much loneliness and depression and addiction and over consumption. Not just on the, like, individually and collectively. Like, we are very disconnected from our,
[24:58] from other people and we're kind of a bit self absorbed and, and I, I do it, I still notice it in myself, how I, my, my subconscious, I, I, I fall towards that space.
[25:09] So understanding that as well as like even in my own art practicing, I'm like, okay,
[25:16] there, there is, I, I'm not, I wouldn't, I would be lying if I didn't say there wasn't part of me that still wishes to be. Like, I'm like, I want to be a famous artist and make millions of dollars and like just be, be like a name.
[25:27] Like I'd love to be the next,
[25:30] you know, like,
[25:31] you know, Georgia O'Keefe or Yayo Kusuma. Like, I love those artists. But at the same time I was like, but I'd be lying if I didn't care about sustainability and community.
[25:41] And like, I have to include that in order for my art to still be really authentic. So I, that's where I've been drawing, been drawn towards. And I think like in university my struggle was like, should I even make art?
[25:55] But now it's like, well, you know, like I, I think about a lot about like painting for example, like acrylic paint, like it's basically, it's plastic, right? So. And I remember in, when I was a kid you'd like put it down the drain.
[26:08] But now I'm like, wait, but that is connected. Like thinking of, I think sometimes I, in community I also include like people but nature and the environment. So seeing like put it pouring plastic, like this plastic paint down there probably isn't good for the earth.
[26:23] Like so now I like have like a closed loop system of how I keep paint water that is, you know, plastic. So I, I started to really be like, okay, well I know like I am an artist and maybe part of me does want to, you know, be known for the art that I create.
[26:40] But I also have to talk about the community piece because like, I can't ignore it. It's like, you know, you like realize it, you find out about it and then it's like, oh, okay, I gotta, I have to listen to this now.
[26:51] I have to learn more. I have to connect with it because I saw in Myself, I'm like, oh, I know I'm happier when I'm in community. I'm happier when I'm talking and with others, and I'm inspired by others.
[27:03] Like, it. Nothing really happens in isolation.
[27:06] So I think it's like this, this calling that I've been having for a while and knowing that it is something I need to listen to, but also still struggling with like my old programming and like overcoming that of being like this, this.
[27:22] So it's kind of like what I said before of like, you know, I'm an artist, I want to be sober. It's like, no, I want to be a community artist now.
[27:28] And I'm having to like, retrain my brain to like fit what a community brain is, even though I'm still not a hundred percent sure how to do it, if that makes sense.
[27:39] That was a long winded story.
[27:42] Valerie Beck: But yeah, I mean, it does make sense because the intention is different.
[27:49] Katherine Roesler: Yeah.
[27:49] Valerie Beck: And it's not mutually exclusive. Right. I think that we can traverse many different worlds.
[27:58] But I also, I, I definitely can see, like, there are different reasons for why we would do art, and community is definitely one of them.
[28:09] Katherine Roesler: Yeah.
[28:10] Valerie Beck: How do you see that manifesting for yourself? Like, how do you engage community with your art rather than just creating the art? Right. Because that's one aspect of it is like, how, how do you see yourself sharing it in a way that is impactful in the way that you want it to be?
[28:29] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, I think,
[28:31] I think kind of in the way that we've like another form of how we've learned in society. Like, we've learned a lot of like, this is math and this is science and this is art, this is visual art.
[28:44] I've. I'm starting to see how,
[28:47] even though, like, I, I'm, I've thought I was like following this path of visual art, I'm seeing, like. No, I think it involves like, once you start involving more people on a single project, it kind of.
[28:58] I don't know if it. Oh, it is just visual art anymore. I think it comes a bit of theater as well, or a bit of something else I think is also needed because it's not just an individual thing.
[29:11] Like, it's a collective thing. So for example, like one idea I've been playing around with was like, just making like large puppets that you would puppeteer with like multiple people and that, you know, like, if it's a paper mache head, it's like multiple people can be working on this bigger sculpture or they're like,
[29:33] I know, maybe you do a community mural, but instead of, you know, everybody doing your own thing, like everybody deciding, okay, this is the colors we're going to use, and this is, you know, like having, I guess, a stay in that creation.
[29:45] And I'm still trying to figure that out because I think sometimes still,
[29:51] because I would want, you know, I think in community it's like everybody needs to have a say in the creation process,
[30:00] but also there still needs to be, I think, some form of like, guidance and leadership or, you know, collaboration. And it's still something that I'm working on and figuring out as I go.
[30:13] I think,
[30:14] I think in, in theory it's. Can be really easy to talk about, but when putting into practice, putting into play,
[30:21] I find,
[30:22] yeah, I find maybe I'm sometimes a little intimidated or I second that. You know, that second guessing of like, oh, is this gonna go right? Or what could go wrong?
[30:31] Instead of just being like, well,
[30:33] with the thinking of play, it's like, no, you just have to. Just have to do it and see what happens. Because you don't know until. Until it's in the process.
[30:42] Valerie Beck: Yeah, I think there's room for experimentation.
[30:46] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, exactly.
[30:48] Valerie Beck: We don't know what exactly is going to work until it does work sometimes.
[30:55] One of the things that I comes to my mind because, like, a lot of people have tried different collab, collaborative public art projects, right? Like, I think this is something that actually happens quite often.
[31:06] Whether that be like a collaborative mural which, like, that represents community, or you've seen those where it's like they put together faces of people's pictures and it creates like this gigantic one.
[31:19] I think those are, those are really cool.
[31:22] But what I like about that is like, how it allows people to be represented in the art. Right? And I think that's what you're getting at too is like, how do we allow people to be represented in the art?
[31:35] Katherine Roesler: Yeah,
[31:37] yeah, be represented. And I think like, have. Have their own touch, have their own, like, markings. You know, if it was like an ind. I don't know, like, if you think like Jackson Pollock, like, he would leave like a cigarette butt on his painting.
[31:51] It's like, how do people leave their own impression? Not just in a sense of like, you know, I. I did this one piece, but like seeing themselves in it in a way that is like a unique impression.
[32:04] To be like, okay, like, you know, that was made by me and this, like, that part of this was made by this person. And like, because not to. Not to be.
[32:14] I guess maybe this is me being critical of Public art. Sometimes I find like, it's. It can be very like almost and maybe it doesn't exist out of this space, but it like, it is very like community mural or sometimes it's like making art side by side and then putting it together where it's like,
[32:31] how do we all just create something all at once? And maybe like, I think we. We had talked about this before, but like. Yeah, how do you get everybody to work on something without And.
[32:43] And it. Make it a cohesive being or thing.
[32:47] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[32:47] Katherine Roesler: All at once. And yeah, that. That's still something that I'm. I've been pondering and I think that is where I need, like, it needs to be done in experimentation. Like, I.
[32:58] It's not going to come to me by myself because I'm just one person. I am not the multiple minds that I.
[33:06] Valerie Beck: Well, okay, if we want to get a little bit deeper into this, it's. There's also the aspect of. Of ego. Right. And people are going to always be kind of at different stages of.
[33:19] Of their relationship with themselves and their ego. Right. And so there are going to be people who want to have the name out for themselves.
[33:29] And I think that's a natural part of humanity.
[33:33] Katherine Roesler: Yeah.
[33:34] Valerie Beck: And that's okay.
[33:35] I think there's space for that.
[33:38] So what comes to mind when I'm thinking about this? Cause it's like, how could how we have it all be happening all at once and it be a creative process and allow for people to kind of be where they're at with it in the process?
[33:50] Because some people are going to want to connect and some people are going to want to show off. Right.
[33:55] So I think about like dance ciphers,
[33:58] where, you know, you have a circle and you have kind of dancers on the outside making the circle, and then you have the person in the middle sharing their expression.
[34:08] And you can choose to go in that circle in various ways. If you're really feeling insecure and you go in the circle, you might. And you don't know too much about the art or anything like that.
[34:19] You might just be dancing the like three moves that you know and. But it's kind of like your prac. Like that's a beginner's practice too, is to go into an uncomfortable space, kind of practice what you've learned and like be okay with the uncomfortability and just being, practicing, being seen and expressing yourself.
[34:39] Then like there may the be the people who go into the circle and they want to prove themselves. Maybe they have like a certain level of mastery or they haven't gotten that recognition.
[34:49] And, you know, all they want to do, they don't want to be danced with. They want to. They want to dance at people.
[34:56] Right. And I feel like that's,
[35:00] you know, that that is a lot of, like, trying to assert yourself in a way. Right. Like, this is my art. This is how I want to be seen. And there, I.
[35:07] Like I said, I think there is a space for that.
[35:10] There are statements that need to be made. And sometimes it is about also transmuting pain.
[35:16] And then, you know, you could go into the circle and you may want to connect. That's your community space. And so you go into the circle and you're doing your thing and you're expressing, but then you make eye contact with someone else, and then you exchange and you move with them and you bring them into the circle,
[35:34] and they feel empowered then to, like, take it on. And that's spreading the love in that sense.
[35:41] Katherine Roesler: Yeah.
[35:42] Valerie Beck: So anyway, that was my train of thought, based on my experience of, like, how I've seen this, like, mobile art go down.
[35:50] Katherine Roesler: Yeah.
[35:50] Valerie Beck: You know.
[35:51] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. No, I. Because I. I've definitely been a part of those. I didn't know what they were called, but I. Hearing you describe it made me think of it, like, in a.
[36:00] I guess a more objective way that I never thought about before. And, like, the different kinds of dancers and different selves and different kind of spaces in our. In our own journeys of, like, whether it's like, your healing, but also age and wisdom and all that.
[36:15] And definitely.
[36:18] But I think it also reminded me. It's like, what. What. What is the intention behind somebody dance, like, dancing or. But the. You might not even know what your intention is.
[36:30] You know, like, you might go in. Because I'm like, I've definitely been that person that, like, I've been all of that. I've been like, the scared. You know, I don't want to do this, but I've been the one that, like, I, you know, you go.
[36:39] And I'm like, I want everyone to look at me like, I'm the best here. You know, Like, I've had that energy, but I've also had the energy of, like, no, this is fun.
[36:45] Like, I want people to join me, but they were. I don't know if they were ever consciously. I didn't consciously make a choice. It was just kind of where I was creating in that moment, which, like you said, like, there's a time and a place for all of them,
[36:59] because if that's where you're at that's where you're at. Like, you can't argue with the fact of it. That is, if that's where you're at, that, that is, that is what it's meant to be and that's where you're meant to create from.
[37:12] Because, yeah, that. That's the space you're in, you know.
[37:16] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[37:17] Katherine Roesler: And yeah, it's interesting to think, well, like, maybe it's in creating spaces of more community or connection that intention has. That intention should be established at its core of, you know, we're going into this with this mindset.
[37:39] Like, you know, this is what we're all collectively choosing to create and having that maybe as the tether would change, then that next.
[37:52] Yeah. Would change how people interact with whatever that art form it is that you're choosing to create, whether it be the dance circle or,
[37:58] I don't know, creating a visual art piece, but like having that intention set and like, agreed upon.
[38:06] And then maybe you do sway from it a little bit. But then you remember, oh, no, I decided that I want to be here for community.
[38:12] And I declared to everybody that I'm with that this is for. It's not just for me, it's for us and it's for connection. And then that is the point when maybe it.
[38:24] It aligns maybe everyone on that same point of connection.
[38:28] And it would be a choice. So maybe you are in more your ego,
[38:32] but you rec. It's like you have to call yourself out a little bit and be like, oh, no, it's. It's not for just me. It's here. I. I want to be here because I want to feel the energy of people.
[38:44] I want to get this.
[38:46] Yeah. Get that connection rather than stay in your individualism.
[38:51] Valerie Beck: Yeah. Beautifully said. Let's tie it into what we were talking about earlier with the definition of community and how that's kind of changed and how sometimes it's somewhat misrepresented in,
[39:05] you know, today's world.
[39:07] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. In. In this other podcast called Ologies with Alie Ward, she had an. An episode and I'm forgetting how to say the word eptomology.
[39:20] Valerie Beck: I think it was etymology. Yes. Yeah.
[39:24] Katherine Roesler: So basically like the history of words. And she was talking. The guest was specifically talking about community and how community has been. It's been co opted over the years to include so many different things which aren't actually what a community is like,
[39:38] like the LGBT community. Not that it isn't a group of people that are.
[39:43] Have like same values and things, but it. The LGBT Community or any community. It's like global. It's worldwide. It's hundreds of thousands, probably millions and millions, billions of people, but a community.
[39:56] She talks about how a community is really. I guess the other way that it's been changed is like, we talk about communities and like, business, where it's like, oh, you know, I want you to be a part of my community, but to be a part of the community, you have to pay a fee,
[40:08] right? Where you have to be a certain kind of person, or like, there's, I guess, criteria that you have to meet in order to be part of that community.
[40:19] And therefore, because there's this criteria and, like, selection that therefore, then it isn't a community, because community should be just like a place where anybody can fit in and belong and participate.
[40:34] And I guess if I remember, I guess what I kind of took that to mean for myself, like, the origin, like, the meaning of community to me then is like, well, community should be about, like, connecting people and, like, helping those around you.
[40:51] Just like, almost. Just because. And like, it is something that almost happens naturally.
[40:57] And maybe it's been changed and used now in different ways because we've moved away from it. Like, in certain situations, like, I can definitely think when I'm like, okay, what communities am I part of?
[41:09] Like, I do, you know, I attend my local library, but I don't. I don't know anyone by name. I like, you know, there's digital checkout now, which is crazy. So, like, we've.
[41:20] Yeah, you've lost, like, the little local grocery store or like, these spaces where you would. Or I guess, third spaces. That probably is part of this too.
[41:28] So. Yeah, the meaning has evolved and changed over time, and I think then it's hard to, like, think about it because it's like, well,
[41:36] yeah, should. Should, like, money be a part of it? Like, shouldn't community just be a community? Like, why do we have to build it? Shouldn't it just be. Should it not already just be there?
[41:47] Or, like, are. Is it already there? We just have to, like, you know, take the wool from our eyes to see it sort of thing.
[41:54] Valerie Beck: Yeah, those are all really great points, and I don't have answers. I would love to hear if anyone out there in the audience, like, has. Has thoughts on this. I'd also love to hear them.
[42:05] Well, because discourse is also part of community, right? We can't just consume. Right. Anyway, the.
[42:11] Yeah, this idea that, like, community should just be a naturally occurring thing that, you know, is open to everyone, I think because of the way that our society has evolved.
[42:24] It's just a little bit out of grasp.
[42:26] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, we, we've some, we've like,
[42:29] we've almost eliminated it kind of. And, and maybe like the fact that it's been eliminated has been like an. Maybe, maybe not. I won't say completely eliminated, but like it's been dispersed or I can't think of the word, but it does.
[42:46] Like then, then therefore, like it is a natural occurring thing. Like it wasn't. I mean, was it intentional? I guess you think of like, what are the causes that led it to us?
[42:57] Be less, have less community structure. And then I just think of like white supremacy. And yeah, you know, my mind's blanking right now, but colonization. And I'm like, oh, well, that, that, that maybe that's probably the answer.
[43:13] You could go into it that way in some form.
[43:16] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And there's a little bit of the commodification of community that we're so. And even, you know. Cause I, I participate in the system as a coach who essentially builds quote unquote communities.
[43:31] I think I would rather call them growth groups because they're selective. Right. Like you're choosing people to grow with. It's a little bit different. But even like a platform like Kajabi, Right.
[43:42] Their. One of their products is called Community.
[43:45] Katherine Roesler: What is Kajabi?
[43:46] Valerie Beck: So Kajabi is a platform for content creators and coaches to build their businesses.
[43:53] And you know, so one of the products that you can sell is. Is community. Right. So which,
[44:02] you know, it is what it is, but basically it's creating a space for people who are your clients to come together and interact and share ideas.
[44:11] Right.
[44:14] So my observation with this is that it's. It can feel like pulling teeth a little bit, I think. And the reason for this is because, like,
[44:23] it's hard to commune with people that you don't already relate with.
[44:28] Katherine Roesler: Mm.
[44:30] Yeah, there's.
[44:32] There, yeah. Maybe the common ground is that you join, but there what is the other common ground? And like there isn't that natural occurrence of relationship building. You don't cross paths with them physically every day or like cohabit the same spaces.
[44:47] Like when I think of like. Cause then in my son, I'm like, I always. I was trying to think of like what communities I've been a part of. And sometimes like some of the communities like that I thought of like when.
[45:02] So when we did that, like the Belong Instant Masterclass, I remember, I think they asked like, you know, think of what communities you had been a part of. And the one That I thought of was like a summer camp I used to go to and I felt so much joy there.
[45:14] But I'm like, oh, but it was, it was paid like my parents paid for me to be there.
[45:19] And then like, well then public school, you know, that that was a free place. But then, well, maybe not exactly paying for it. Taxes, right? Like, yeah, I'm like, oh, that was also created.
[45:30] But I'm like, what, what really community spaces have I been around and I'm like, I don't know if I can think of maybe the kids on my street. But even then it was still just playing games outside.
[45:44] I know that's kind of sidetracked a little bit, but I've been trying to think. I'm like, what communities have I actually really been a part of that I imagine are what I'm saying community is.
[45:54] Valerie Beck: Or maybe there is a mix up in the need for it to not have money exchange. Right. Because at the end of the day money is a resource of energy.
[46:03] So there needs to be energy exchange.
[46:06] Katherine Roesler: Right.
[46:07] Valerie Beck: And it could be time, it could be attention, it could be money or whatever other resources that we have.
[46:13] But maybe she's getting at something else that we're not quite grasping yet. And I will probably have to take some time to think about.
[46:19] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, even, yeah, I guess too what I'm thinking now, especially when, when we are creating communities where it's like you have to pay to be a part of it. I have noticed since COVID happened, you know, I've been a part of like some, you know, more online things and it's interesting to see how like some are more successful than others and some they start off really strong.
[46:41] And she actually Radham mentioned this in, she mentioned that, oh, to be like in a community you have to like, over time it will dwindle. Like usually it's very strong at the beginning because people have that they've got the spark of like, wow, this is great.
[46:57] Like other people are interested in the same thing I am and like there's this grasp that comes to it and then over time that kind of initial spark fades and that's when you really have to figure out how to like maintain it without burning yourself out.
[47:15] And another thing that she had mentioned in the, in her classes was that,
[47:21] and I think it was in the masterclass, but it was, you need to be an active participant and to be a part of community. And so now when I like in doing her course and doing this other course that I'm doing for the.
[47:34] It's called Minecraft. It's like the neuroscience of manifestation. But I'm choosing. I'm like, no, if I want to feel a part of this, I. I'm gonna message this many people because I know that that's what I wanna get out of it.
[47:49] But I can see that not everybody is on the same page. So what you had said previously around you like, it. It was. I forget what exactly you said, but you said it was kind of like difficult to bring everybody together.
[48:01] Yeah. Because there isn't like this shared connection.
[48:06] It's almost like you need to, like, people need to be told, like, hey, we're building community. If you want to be a part of this, like, you need to do X, Y and Z things to actually feel like you are going to be a part of it.
[48:18] Because it doesn't just happen. It has to be an active choice. And maybe before that, active choice used to be like, okay, well, I need to eat, so I'm going to go to my grocery store and, you know, I'm going to see the same 10 people throughout the week because we live in a small space or small community.
[48:38] But now it's. Well, I have to actively choose. Like, I'm gonna show up and be a participant and like, change that narrative. Cause I. I definitely see, like, you know, you'll.
[48:49] You'll sign up for a course and then, you know, it's. It's worth quite a bit of money. And then only, you know, maybe there's 130 people on it, but only 80 people show up to the calls and only 25 people right in the chat.
[49:03] But it's like, it has to become a choice. And if you don't know that it's supposed to be a choice, then you might not even be aware that you aren't participating, even though you paid to be there in the first place.
[49:15] Valerie Beck: Oh, that's such a good point. I think that you. You've hit it on the head. Like, it. It's choice. And it has to be something that is so worth you being consistently present all the time.
[49:26] Because that's the only way that you will be a part of it. If you're. If it's not. If you are not present to the value of it, it's so easy to check out because we check out all the time in life.
[49:37] And I think for me, at least running Club Phoenix, it's so worth it for me to work on myself and discover who I am, that I'm going to keep doing that and I can show up for my people because Like, I will always have something to say about that every single day.
[49:54] Right. And you know, when I was doing, when I was heavily steeped in dance community,
[50:00] I was there every day because I wanted to grow, because I wanted to move and I wanted to meet people.
[50:07] And when I stopped wanting to do that, then I stopped being part of the community. Right. Like, and,
[50:15] but I can always be back in it as part of the community if that motivation is there for me to go back in it. And I've had that experience recently,
[50:25] but it's like, is it worth it right now for like, it has to be worth it for you to do this and be present with it.
[50:32] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. And I guess also too because it like in a way, like we are having to like manufacture these spaces. Like,
[50:43] maybe we needed to take a step back and think about, okay, well maybe this is all happening in,
[50:50] you know, a shorter timeline than it actually takes to, to grow and to like have what a community is, where maybe there is less choice that has to be done and it just can become a part of how we exist and how we live.
[51:07] And it's almost like being so far taken away from it, realizing that we're missing it now,
[51:14] it's gonna take a bit to get back to where it just becomes a,
[51:19] like the regular cadence in our lives. And so it's, maybe it's also like there's a time element that especially like, I know we, we, we've been trained with this instant gratification, like things have to happen now, now, now.
[51:32] But community is something that it doesn't happen in, you know, a one time payment. It happens over like months, years,
[51:41] decades, like generations.
[51:44] And it's not so like finite like it is, it is just something that has to be built and cultivated for its longevity. And like, I guess it'll, I guess like it's just going to take time to like really build more community in our world.
[52:03] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And I think also this has to do with energy management and dealing with burnout. And I think the more that we are connected to our devices and using them for dopamine hits,
[52:18] the more we are susceptible to burnout and that makes it hard for us to be present and want to be in community.
[52:26] Katherine Roesler: And I, and I think like even like having that,
[52:29] recognizing that it's like a something to manage like that dopamine hit from social media. And this, this idea that came to me when kind of like,
[52:41] so I remember I took one course in university and it was about, it was a community development course. And in it our professor Talked about energy in the form of.
[52:51] He's like, if you could. Because his, his thing was like just eat like one thing that can help the planet is you don't have to be a vegan, but just eat less meat.
[53:00] And he would be like, he would equate everything and I don't know why the meat thing stuck in my mind, but he would equate everything to be like riding a bike.
[53:07] He's like, well if you were to produce this much, you know, beef it would take, you would have to ride a bike for you know, four hours. Or if you were to have this much energy, you were to like, you would have to ride a bike for eight hours.
[53:22] If you were to you know, like power your computer for a day, you know, you'd have to, this is how much energy you'd have to exert. And I think it's interesting too, like when, because we're over consuming and our, we're over, we're burning ourselves up like mentally and physically.
[53:38] We're burning our resources out mentally and physically or they don't have, they're not mental and physical, physically,
[53:45] maybe spiritually, it's like, well of course we're burning out and we're burning like we're over consuming in like pollution and climate change because it's happening at a rate that we actually can't keep up with.
[53:58] I can, yes, I can easily plug in my computer, but if I were to actually put in the man hours to like put the energy of my life, like it would take so much longer.
[54:09] So we, we try and like do so much but we actually are like over. We're, we're, we're like way overachieving. We're like trying to way too many things that like we physically like really wouldn't, can't do without like energy that we are you know, extracting at a rate that like is way too fast,
[54:30] like unsustainable.
[54:32] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And those are big questions with solutions that I think people are trying to find. But it's not going to happen overnight.
[54:40] Katherine Roesler: So yeah, we, I think that it, that's a whole, you know, it's a whole nother conversation about sustainability. And I do think like, I truly think it is all interconnected. Like it's at all,
[54:51] it isn't just one conversation, but it is all connected. And I think,
[54:55] I do think like, I think there is so much hope and I think we are, I think humans, you know, that we're resilient and I think we will change and like we will solve like issues that we're dealing with.
[55:07] But I just. Yeah, I think it will take time and a lot of more time than we think, I guess. And just like the faith that we will figure it out, that we're resilient.
[55:18] Valerie Beck: So I'll say one more piece on the communities and kind of the movement to build them with money.
[55:26] And that is. I think that this is something that people are doing because they're seeing that people are squandering their attention.
[55:37] And money is a resource that can be bought that may redirect some of their attention.
[55:49] And so I definitely am on board with just like the whole idea of having skin in the game. Right. Because you're going to invest no matter what. Just like really being conscious of what you're investing in is.
[56:03] Okay. Let's just say let's take the average person.
[56:06] They're putting all of their time and attention investment into their social media.
[56:14] A lot of it. And what it may take. Cause that's addicting. Right. What it may take for them to not do that is to realize there's a problem and pay someone else to divert their attention.
[56:28] Katherine Roesler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. To have that like, support. Because. Yeah. When you're changing any behavior, any addictive behavior. Like when I was getting so worth. Like I. You couldn't do. I did not do it alone.
[56:39] Like I needed other people and comm. You need a community. Is. Is exactly that. Is that. That piece of like having. Having that support. But I. I really liked what you said about like just thinking about money.
[56:52] Almost like it. It's reminding me. It's like we need to think, change our mindset about it. See it as energy. It's an exchange. And that it can be used in so many great ways and just have a.
[57:03] A reference. Reform it in.
[57:07] In different contexts to be like it's. It can do so much good. Especially when it's intentional. Like the intent behind it. That choice and the curiosity that you're seeking out that choice with is for like the betterment of yourself and hopefully the others around you and like the world in general.
[57:27] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And I think one day we may get to a point where the demands on our energy are not so great. Right. I think that the. And at that point we can start to change the way that we allocate our resources.
[57:43] I think it's gonna be a lot of work to get up to that point.
[57:46] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. To change the demands on our energy. I really like that. Yeah. Reminding me. Have you. There's a book called Rest is Resistance. Really, really good book. But it's all about basically how just like taking time for rest is making that change, you know, is fighting against the treadmill and the machine,
[58:07] but also recognizing like, yeah, we are part of it, like, we need to work with it, but we also need to make those incremental steps in the way that we want to like, conserve and use our own energy.
[58:20] Yeah.
[58:21] Valerie Beck: Yeah. I, I feel this on a very personal level because one of the people that I was talking to in my local community earlier,
[58:30] he was asking me about my work. You know, with coaching, everything is like, are you okay? Are you like, emotionalized? Like, my job to me is to ensure that the amount of time that I'm giving to my clients each week is buffered with so much rest and self care.
[58:48] So that I show up with resilience. I show up with the ability to create the container that my people need to heal.
[58:55] Katherine Roesler: Right.
[58:56] Valerie Beck: And so realizing that is like, I spent a lot of time resting.
[59:01] I spent a lot of my time cooking healthy food, making sure I go to bed on time. Right. I spend a lot of time by myself, but it is for this purpose and by doing so, I am reallocating my resources.
[59:16] I am spending less money, but I'm also like, not in the world. Doing so much crazy stuff.
[59:22] Katherine Roesler: Yeah.
[59:23] Valerie Beck: And. And wasting a lot of my time on things that I. I don't need to be. And so it. Yeah, I. I think.
[59:31] Katherine Roesler: Yeah.
[59:31] Valerie Beck: Well, it takes so much intention.
[59:33] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. And it. You definitely have a lot of indention. But like, even I think too, like, what I think is important that you're doing is like, you are. You're taking care of yourself so you can hold space for others to like, see that and take care of themselves.
[59:48] And like, that is like that chain reaction where then they can open up that space and they can like literally get your energy to then, you know, get the healing that they need.
[01:00:00] Which ultimately that. What's that saying? Like, you know, heal yourself and you change the world kind of thing. And I, I truly believe that that is where that is how we make change and he.
[01:00:10] And heal ourselves. But our communities is by looking like, seeing what you need to. How you need to realign in your intentions so that can influence the others around you too.
[01:00:23] Valerie Beck: Yeah. So that's the amazing takeaway for today.
[01:00:27] Yeah. Take the time. Take the time to.
[01:00:30] To really put yourself first.
[01:00:34] Because by doing that, like. Yeah. You are creating the container for others to heal.
[01:00:40] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. Cool.
[01:00:42] Valerie Beck: Anything else you want to mention today before we end our session?
[01:00:47] Katherine Roesler: I don't think so.
[01:00:50] What should I say nothing, nothing that comes off the top of my head. I think we, we had a really well rounded conversation. If you, I guess if you want to connect with me, you know, Valerie will share the my links.
[01:01:03] Valerie Beck: Oh and I, I, I'll show you this after but and for all the audience here, I've been thinking about, well I've been creating all these podcasts with amazing people having great conversations and then they just go off and to do their own thing.
[01:01:16] And I would love to create more connection between guests and, and listeners and like continue the dialogue again because this is not about consumption of media. This is about listening to ideas and putting them into action.
[01:01:34] So I am going to be coming out with a platform soon for all of us to do that and I love that.
[01:01:40] Katherine Roesler: Yeah. Keep the discourse going.
[01:01:44] Valerie Beck: All right. Thank you Katherine for being on today.
[01:01:47] Katherine Roesler: Thank you so much for having me. I love, I loved our conversation. It was so fun.
