[00:03] Valerie Beck: Rise, Renew. Reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where every episode ignites hope and healing. I am absolutely stoked this week to present to you my conversation with my friend Kyle Hebner. He's the drummer of the metal band Mourn the Light, but more importantly, an absolutely delightful and unabashedly honest human being. Just like Dylan Gowen from a few episodes back. Kyle and I met during our heavy metal travels through Japan last December. If you like deep dives and spicy takes, this is an episode for you. Keep listening until the end, because after our interview, Kyle added in a few thoughtful reflections that if you're paying attention, we'll keep you thinking. On your toes. Burns, it's ready for flight Shadows may.
[00:54] Kyle Hebner: Come Try to tear you apart but you're the flame that ignites.
[00:58] Valerie Beck: All right, guys. Welcome back to from the Ashes. So I have my friend Kyle here, Kyle Hebner. And we met on a Japan tour. Yeah. Of Lords of the Trident and Seven Spires.
[01:11] Kyle Hebner: That's correct.
[01:12] Valerie Beck: Yeah. In December. And a group of over 50 of us went through Japan, just like Dylan did, one of my previous guests. So, yeah, we're here to talk more battle and all sorts of things.
[01:24] Kyle Hebner: Story of my life, man. I love it. Let's go.
[01:27] Valerie Beck: Yeah. I've really appreciated what you've brought to the conversations that we've had. I remember distinctly, I think it was actually on the night of Navoya, I got to talk to you about metal. And also a bunch of you kind of just came up to me as like, hey, what do you think of this stuff? And it was really funny because I think I just never gave it a lot of thought. But you've even said to me, like, the name of this podcast is really metal, and kind of like my approach. There are a lot of parallels to what I do and kind of like the culture that I'm in and the way that I think even that might coincide with how people in the middle culture think.
[02:04] Kyle Hebner: I think. I think. I think I would agree with that. You know, and it really stems from, like, you have a very open mind when it comes to anything, you know, looking at your. Your podcast here. Your last two episodes was one about leaving God, and the next one was about finding Jesus, right? So, like. So there's a large sort swath of real estate you cover just those two topics, Right. Segwaying. Heavy metal is not entirely unlike a religion, at least in my perspective. You know, like, we have our places where we go congregate. Right. We go to venues. We have. I hate I hate this distinction, but it works so well. We have the congregation, we're all fans, we're all metalheads. We all go to a place, we enjoy a thing. And the one thing you find with religion is people say it over and over again, is community. Well, that's what we have. We have a community. We have a place, a support system. And I'm not religious myself. I'm going to put a stamp right on that. But let's. I find the parallels interesting to start off this conversation with.
[03:12] Valerie Beck: Oh, man. Okay, so there. So I. I've. I've dipped into different musical cultures. We've talked about hip hop before, but I've also been in the house culture, and there's literally this thing called going to church. Yeah. Music, right. Where it's like you go and you kind of like, yes, you're in community, but you also kind of like, give yourself up or, like, surrender to the music and the vibe of the place and. Yeah, and I think music, especially very powerful music, lends itself to that, where we kind of have this, like. I don't want to say like, out of body experience, but, like, you do feel more connected.
[03:48] Kyle Hebner: I think that's by design. You know, a lot of, like, heavy metal, for example, is very powerful. It's very moving and it's very emotional. Like, a lot of, like. My first real concert experience was going to see Sonata arctica back in 2005 in a dingy club, Harpo's in Detroit, Michigan. And it was the most meaningful experience I think I'd had up until that point. Like I said, I'm not religious, so, like, where do I go to find that community that so many people talk about? There's a. One of my favorite songs from that band is Full Moon. And just being in the crowd listening to the song and everyone chanting that chorus at the same time just gave me this euphoric high that I had never felt before, you know, and that's. That's what we call chasing the dragon. Right? You go chase that.
[04:42] Valerie Beck: Okay, so I have a question then. So I. I grew up in the 90s in New York, and so it was kind of like around the time where hip hop was, you know, was still evolving and there was still a lot of that culture permeating. And I understand the origins of it. Did you also grow up in an era where metal was coming about, and did that have an influence on how you found it?
[05:09] Kyle Hebner: Interesting question, but no. Like, I. So I grew up in Northern Michigan, in the backwoods, Right on Lake Huron. We had to drive an hour in any direction to get anywhere interesting. And north and south weren't. North and west weren't that interesting. East, you'd end up in the lake, you know. So I grew up on a steady diet of everyone talking about hunting and fishing. That's what they talked about. My parents listened to the classic rock radio station. That's really all the music that we had to go on. So any fostering of anything new that came out, we really had to search for it. So, yeah, the background really did not lend itself to metal at all, I don't think, personally. It wasn't until I was 11 or 12 where I found my first heavy metal band. My brother Sean had found. What was it? The Columbia Record Club, and he found this. He ordered a CD off of there like he had never heard it before. It was Iced Earth, Something Wicked this Way Comes. Now, I have to put a caveat on this. Anyone who listens to this, who listens to heavy metal, will know what I'm about to say. But I have to get through this story and get back to that. Okay, so Something Wicked this Way Comes by Iced Earth came out in like 99. So this is 20, what, five, six years ago. And I remember being a preteen, angsty, angry at the world, and sitting on my bed with my headphones and a CD player just listening to this album front to back. And it was only by happenstance because my brother found it and I looked at the COVID and I said, this is a great coverage. And because they had set the ancient Egyptian deity and hoisting an ankh in your face, it was really great. And just I remember being transformed by that album. This was the album that.
[07:13] Kyle Hebner: On the.
[07:13] Kyle Hebner: Radio you had bands like Metallica and Pantera and Primus. So I knew what heavy metal kind of sounded like. And, yeah, I was slowly getting into heavier music. So there was a progression because it was just there on the radio. But Iced Earth was really the band that really cemented my desire, my need to find more. It really made me say I need to dig deeper. I need to go into the underground and find more metal. Because this speaks to me in a way nothing else has. Caveat, right? The big asterisk at the beginning of this story. January 6, 2021, insurrection at the U.S. capitol. Right? The lead guitarist for this band, John Schaeffer, was one of those who made it not only to the Insurrection, but made it inside the Rotundra, you know, armed with fair mace, ready to take over the government. And so. So that Put a black stain on this band for a lot of us the last few years. So if you had listened to his lyrics, he wrote the majority of the lyrics. He's a principal songwriter. Like you kind of saw him going down this rabbit hole, you know, kind of conspiracy minded mentality. He was always been very patriotic, but he went down this really dark, dark rabbit hole. And you know, like Covid obviously messed with everyone's livelihood, very specifically those of us in the arts, you know. And so musicians, artists, you know, were hit very hard and he felt like that was government interfering with his life and his livelihood. You know, there's a line there, you can kind of see it. And it's very frustrating how, you know, he went the wrong way with it. I think most of us can agree he went the wrong way with it.
[09:20] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[09:20] Kyle Hebner: So that's, that's that story.
[09:23] Valerie Beck: So I, I can see that happening. And so I take a lot of notes before we started this podcast, just kind of like looking at the themes here that I'm seeing from the outside.
[09:33] Kyle Hebner: Right.
[09:33] Valerie Beck: In metal. And there's a, so there's a lot of anti Authority. But what I want to distinguish, because I was also drawing parallels to hip hop here, is that a lot of the themes of anti authority for metal seem to be anti authority as God is my enemy from the outside. From the outside. Right. I don't know if it's true, but like if you see the titles, a lot of the songs like Killing God, Enemy of God, like. Right. Whereas like a lot of the hip hop is actually Society is my Enemy or Authority is like People are Miami, not not God. So there's like the focus is different, but there is, there is an interesting parallel there and I wanted to explore that a little bit because both of them have probably historical and cultural context, but what are those contexts? And let's go with metal obviously, because we're talking about metal here.
[10:23] Kyle Hebner: Sure.
[10:24] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[10:26] Kyle Hebner: So metal has a, a long and storied history. Right. But speaking very specifically from the anti authority perspective, it, I honestly, I think, and people can come at me if they want to for this. I think it was more bred out of punk coming out of the United kingdom in the mid-70s. You know, you had Clash and now I don't, I don't know where TSOL came from. I'm gonna have to look this up real quick. I think they're from California actually. Okay, give me a second. Yeah, Long Beach, California. Okay. All right, so, so, so they, they were. TSOL is, I, I, I go to them because they have a very specific song called Abolish Government, which is exactly what we're talking about. And. But I think, I think the attitude really came out of the punk movement, movement in this. In the, in the 70s, right? Because a lot of heavy metal was really born out of your blues. And a lot of the early classic rock, early classic rock bands utilized a lot of those classic blues scales. And a lot of those concepts were not very anti authoritarian, anti government, anti whatever, you know, yet, you know, Deep Purple, Alice Cooper, you know, a lot of those early, early proto metal bands, what we call them, sort of like the grandfathers, or great great grandfathers, if you will, you know, gave way and influenced Black Sabbath. Now all those early Black Sabbath albums, I think, I mean, I guess you could talk about like War Pigs was definitely an influence in anti. Anti authoritarian, but that. That's more. That's not necessarily correct because it's not anti authority, it's anti war. Right. There's definitely a message there. But I really think it was born under the punk movement. And it wasn't really until you hit like the 80s where you had a lot of that crossover thrash. You have the thrash fans and you had the punk bands that smashed themselves together in a. In a large hadron collider. They really spearheaded a lot of that anti authoritarian, you know, anti government, anti. You know, like, you know, just your, Your reach of power is too great. And. Yeah, that's kind of what I think on, on that front anyway. But we can have that conversation.
[12:55] Valerie Beck: Yeah. Well, how about. Okay, so how about the. The more I want to say, like, looking at the darkness and like the death stuff and the God stuff and kind of like the goth, almost the goth aesthetic of everything. Or not everything, but a lot of the stuff, right. A lot of the album covers are very goth, the way that people dress. Right. Like, everyone was in black in Japan. So. Yeah. Want to dip into that a little bit? Where does that come from?
[13:27] Kyle Hebner: So, yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if I can pinpoint exactly where the aesthetic kind of came from, but you know that you had the early goth bands like the Cure and Susie and the Banshees, that, that really kind of emulated a lot of this, but that was more like, like, like a romance. That's more like a gothic, romantic kind of feel. But like. Oh, I got it. Okay. Judas Priest really spearheaded a lot of the. Hey, we. We're gonna kind of like dress up in these like crazy costumes. And it was really like Rob Halford now If you go back and listen to what Rob Halford has said, he did not deliberately try to impart this, you know, the gay scene onto metal. He just happened to know what it was. And he used that understanding and said, hey, look, we're putting forth an image. And this image is very underground, especially in, like, the 70s, so it's not only the people who are familiar with the look knew what it was. Now I need to backtrack because I'm losing people. Rob Halford is what was a closeted gay man for most of his life. He's now an out gay man and living his best life. But he would, in the 70s, frequent these gay clubs in. In England where he's from. And, you know, through that scene, he kind of figured out how or where to go for the clothing that you would normally see in, you know, the, like, with studs and leather, whips, chains, that all came out of those gay clubs back in the. In the 70s. And now, again, like, he. He did not specifically say, I'm going to make heavy metal gay. He wanted just a. A look and an appeal, you know. So I think I'm going to give credit to Priest, even though you could probably give it to any number of those early bands. Does that make sense?
[15:33] Valerie Beck: Yeah, it does. I'm just like. It. It makes me think a lot. This is the thing with underground culture is that they end up kind of influencing each other.
[15:43] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, right. Yeah, 100%.
[15:45] Valerie Beck: Because there are only so many spaces where people who have to hide themselves can hide. So there are crossovers. Right. And so, like, let's say the punking scene and the voguing and the house music and all of that, that also. A lot of that came up from underground culture.
[16:04] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, absolutely.
[16:05] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And with the costumes and all of the vibrancy of that. Right, yeah, yeah. Let me think. It's like, what direction do I want to take this?
[16:18] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. You're throwing me some curveballs. I haven't. I know, you know what I'm thinking, like on my feet here, trying to figure it out.
[16:25] Valerie Beck: It's like, how. How much do I want to dig into that? I'm like, hmm, Right, okay, so, okay, then I guess I want to ask then, was it Rob Halford? So he didn't have the intention of making metal gay, but yeah, it is.
[16:41] Kyle Hebner: Really funny when you think about that fact that he did. But that's all right.
[16:45] Valerie Beck: Yeah. So. So how then did his influence evolve the music?
[16:51] Kyle Hebner: So as much as I don't think a lot of us would like to admit it. You know, the image really does play a big part in. The image in the presentation, plays a big part in your stage show. But also your image can influence your music too, Right? Because you also want to project. Especially at that time, it was hyper masculinity, you know, it was, you know, look how tough I am. Look how, like, I'm gonna run off with your girls if you're not paying attention. And even if you are paying attention, I'm gonna do it anyway because I'm a scoundrel. So, you know, that. Really. I. Maybe I don't know this for a fact, but I feel like it really led itself into, like, the hair metal craze of the. Of the eight. Because that was all image, you know, it was all image. It was all presentation. It was all there to get looks. Like Dee Snider once said, like, you know, like, I don't care if you're putting makeup on me, putting a wig on me, so long as I'm getting attention. That's the important part here. Right? So De Snyder's from Twisted Sister, by the way, if anyone's paying attention on their bingo cards out there. So.
[18:14] Valerie Beck: Oh, yeah, okay.
[18:17] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[18:18] Valerie Beck: Oh, so many questions. All right, so hair metal, is that the. Just like the. The hair tossing?
[18:25] Kyle Hebner: Not exclusively. So like, the hair metal bands of the 80s came out of the LA Sunset Strip, right. They were all into glitz, glamour. So you're talking guns. Not quite Guns N Roses, that was a little bit later. But. But Rats, Motley Crue, Cinderella, Poison. Those bands that. If you looked at a Poison album cover, you would think, those are. Those are girls. Those are a bunch of chicks on this album cover. You know, quoting a radio rock DJ from the LA Strip at the time, he knew guys who wanted to **** the girls in Poison, and there were no girls in Poison. You know, that. That's how much they. They wanted the appeal of, you know, looking effeminate. But, you know, musically it's all very straightforward. You know, 4. 4 pop music with distorted guitars. Because it's. Yeah, it's about the music. And you can go back and listen to those albums and think, yeah, these are great albums, but 80% of it was about the look, getting attention and just, you know, making. Making a name for yourself through your image. Yeah, Again, these are all topics that are heavily disputed. And, you know, you can. Any metalhead will give you a slight variation on what we're talking about, but mostly it's, you know, a matter of perspective. On that. Metalheads are very opinionated. So.
[19:56] Valerie Beck: Okay, so there's this concept of, like, kind of living out loud. We're being kind of being a rebel. I'm. I'm not talking strictly about metal, actually, but they're right. But this goes. It applies to many different forms of art.
[20:15] Kyle Hebner: Okay. Yep.
[20:16] Valerie Beck: Especially art like this. And if we want to look at. Because we talked about, like, making metal gay, like drag.
[20:25] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, for sure.
[20:26] Valerie Beck: Is a type of, like, living out loud and kind of living. Living your expression, living your truth. You know, how much of it is that? Because I feel like metal goes. Or people in metal kind of go out of their way to not be part of the crowd.
[20:47] Kyle Hebner: And in part of not being in. Not trying to be part of the crowd, they become kind of their own crowd. Right. But. But yes, there is a very common thread. At least I think that, you know, we take pride in not doing what normal. Quote, normal people do. Whatever normal is. Right. We. You talked about that on your previous podcast where, you know, normal. I wrote a paper in high school about how normal was the hardest thing to define because it changes every year. But that being said, you know, I think it's. It's more or less like I'm not going to like something popular just because it's popular. Like, I need to have a reason to. It needs to talk to me in a very specific way. Right. And that. That's the way I've always looked at it was. You know, I like Family Guy and the Simpsons, not because Family Guy and the Simpsons are popular, but because there's some very interesting funny things or if I want to turn off my brain, I can do that too, you know, And I also like south park the same way. It's not because it's popular. It's because Matt and Trey are very poignant when they. When they want to be. Otherwise, they're very crude and. But it's also. It's all in the. The name of driving home that narrative. So getting back to the point of, like, living out loud, I think we want to live our. We want to live who we want to be. We want to be the. Express ourselves the way that we're going to. You know, we're going to wear the band T shirts. And sometimes I feel like I'm a walking billboard because I just have a. I have a creator hat. I've got my. My greyhawk shirt. I've got my battle dust that's got 40 patches on it. And I'm just, like, advertising for. For all these other bands. But it's. It's really just like, yeah, I'm. I'm going to be an individual. I'm. But also, again, this individuality lends itself to, you know, being part of this own little clique that does a lot of things very similarly. So. But when you meet the individuals, obviously they have their own thoughts and opinions and express them, you know, just like anyone else will.
[23:01] Valerie Beck: So, yeah. So I consider myself to be fairly counterculture.
[23:10] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[23:11] Valerie Beck: And so when you guys came to Japan, I was pleasantly surprised that you all kind of stick by your guns and just represent yourselves the way that you like. I'm not around a lot of people like that most of the time, so for me, it was very refreshing. And it's cool to have a culture that accepts that even though you all kind of are dressing at the same time.
[23:44] Kyle Hebner: Yeah. Isn't that strange? So I definitely agree, and I appreciate that perspective because even though I can walk down the street and I can see a guy wearing an obituary shirt and be like, hey, I love that shirt. Let's talk music. And I know from that moment, I will be able to talk to that person relatively in depth about some facet of life, if not just going to concerts, because metalheads, very specifically, the ones who wear those band T shirts, are pretty much want to talk to you about this stuff. I look at that from another perspective, right? If. If you see someone with a Bruno Mars shirt, and no offense to Bruno Mars, I think he's a great musician. But I'm just saying, as an example, if you like Bruno Mars, you may not have anything in common with that person. You know, you may. You'd be like, hey, nice shirt, and they'll be great. Or, thanks. Or you might be able to have a small conversation with that person. But if, like, again, if you see someone with an underground metal shirt, you can probably guarantee you're gonna have a friend for life, you know, talking to that person. Not 100 of the time, that's not 100 the case, you know, but that's, you know, like, there's always that caveat. It's. It's never. You know, a Sith is not dealing absolutes. Right. Or a Jedi. I screwed up the quote, so.
[25:07] Valerie Beck: But the chances are higher because I. I feel like people who have certain experiences and. And process those experiences a certain way do kind of then gravitate towards that. And I. I think, you know, at least for metal, there may be deeper, slightly deeper experiences than just surface level.
[25:26] Kyle Hebner: Yes, thank you for bringing that up. I was thinking just now That a lot. Again, not all, but a lot of us who gravitate toward heavy metal, punk, these heavier genres of music. A lot of us have felt exclusion in some way, shape or form. Right. Like you can go back to Priest with Rob Halford, you know, like I myself, I was teased relentlessly as a kid, you know, so, so I know what it's like to be, you know, put at in the other category. Right. You know, certainly not to the extent that the majority of minorities do, but I can at least empathize from, from a certain perspective. So I think when you encounter a metalhead and, and you, and you see that they're empathetic and they listen and they understand and they want to have those deep conversations. It's because, you know, again, they know what it's like to be excluded. This is again, not a hundred percent of the time, but you know, I think the majority of us are like that and I think a little self serving but you know, like that's, But.
[26:38] Valerie Beck: I would have to agree with you, I felt it's really funny because that's how I found you guys at. On the tour too is like you guys were really nice to each other, very courteous of each other's, I don't know, feelings, needs, all of it. And it just made the whole atmosphere that much more enjoyable.
[26:58] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, I, I totally agree. And that's, and that's a common thread throughout our community. Like I said it, I don't use the word likely because it is, you know, we, we do, we help, we support each other and you know, we see our friends. So there's actually a broad group of people that strictly travel around the world going to festivals. Right. I have met so many people going to festivals that I've seen halfway across the world. And you're just at this, you know, like. And then we, it's like an old friend. You immediately say hi. You know, we hang out, we, you know, have a beer and catch up. You know, it's, it's, it's very, it's fascinating. Yeah. But yeah, I would have to agree 100%.
[27:41] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And it also brings to mind, I remember was it in, in Nagoya that, that oh temple. That temple. Lead singer.
[27:50] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[27:50] Valerie Beck: Speech about like uniting. Yeah. Uniting as, as humanity and all that. I just thought that's so thoughtful.
[27:58] Kyle Hebner: And that came out of like this aggressive hardcore crossover punk thrash. This was the guy that was bashing the microphone against his head so he brushed LED all over the place and then he was like togetherness. That's, that's what we mean. It's the aggressive unity, you know.
[28:19] Valerie Beck: Yeah, I, I absolutely love that. That whole, that whole experience and just seeing like. Because I, I feel that's why I like that. What would you call that again? Like Fascher or is it.
[28:31] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, yeah, so. So it's, it's a crossover thrash is the technical definition for it. Now this is, this is a sub genre of heavy metal that sort of combines sort of like the aggressive and the anti authoritarian perspective of punk with the intensity of thrash and they throw that in a blender. Talk about Stormtroopers of Death. Back in the 80s with Scott Ian on guitar from Anthrax, he formed this crossover punk. Crossover thrash punk band. And I don't want to say that was. That was like the birth of crossover, but that was. He. He helped bring that more into the limelight just because of who he was as, as a musician from. Known for Men's Racks. Right. Chock full of ****. So this is another thing. So like if you go back and listen to the, the Dylan episode, I listened to that when it came out and I was like a lot of metalheads because we're so sort of intense with our need to know more about this genre. We become sort of historians on a metal in our own right. Right. You know, like, because we've spent countless hours watching documentaries, reading books, listening to these bands, listening to people talk about these bands, talking about them. We. We just have this encyclopedic knowledge of where this stuff comes from.
[30:05] Valerie Beck: Yeah, I noticed that and I actually, I really appreciate that because I don't just listen to music to, to kind of enjoy myself. I actually want to know like, well, why was this created and all of that? Which is why I was so. Actually, because when I first heard Seven Spires, I couldn't really hear the lyrics. But then after, when I went home and I like properly sat down and listened to what she was singing, I connected so much better with it. Yeah. And there's a story behind it.
[30:37] Kyle Hebner: Absolutely. Yeah. So Adrian, Adrian Cowan, singer of Seven Spires. Yeah, she pours all of her emotions into her lyrics, you know, and, and she has, she's open about this. She talks about her battles with your depression, anxiety and you know, again, a lot of us feel that way, but she, she really pours those emotions into, into her lyrics and you know, she's come up with this like beautiful stories that she tells through the last four albums or whatever it was. I think, I think they had one story that spanned three albums. Just talking about, I think they were like. Like two immortal beings, like, locked in this immortal struggle of, you know, love, loss. And it's. It's. It's incredible. It's really good.
[31:30] Valerie Beck: Yeah, I. I think. I think it's on their website. I want to look that up later. But it is incredible. One of the things that I do, as I basically do life coaching with people, right? And one of the things that we do is I have my clients tell their stories and. Because the idea is that once you tell the story to the world, you no longer own it as your own in that, like, you no longer hold the shame of it being something that has, like, dragged you down or whatnot. You're giving it as a gift to heal others. And I feel like that's true to Adrienne's lyrics and her music. And I've seen the effects of that real, in real time. Just the way that people talk about it, too, like, on the forum that we're on and how, like, it brings them to tears and all of that. Like, it's really compelling. And I was just very pleasantly surprised at the way that people have connected with it.
[32:25] Kyle Hebner: Absolutely. So what was. So we've talked about this before, but for the purposes of this discussion, what was your initial thought when you were, you know, presented with the idea of going to Japan for two weeks with a group of metalheads? What was your very first thought when.
[32:42] Valerie Beck: You were like, okay, let me see. I think my first thought was, wow, yeah, let me jump into that pot. Okay. And this is why, because I don't. I've worked with so many people, and having been kind of just always feeling like the odd one out all the time and the outsider that just, you know. But that's my personal story is, like, I will meet people where they're at. So I try not to have too many expectations, except that I'm going to be with these people. However, what I have heard is that that is very unusual, that approach, right? That that kind of mindset might be unusual, but it has helped me a lot to navigate new situations in of which I have navigated through so many. And so, yeah, that was my first thought. But the thing is, like, we're always trying to figure out, well, what kind of people are we going to be working with, right? And so when I saw you guys and all of that, because, you know, as guys, we're always anticipating. Because every group is different. So as guides, we're always like, what are they going to be like?
[33:56] Kyle Hebner: What's.
[33:56] Valerie Beck: What's. Right. Every group. And even like that micro group of people on a trip is going to have their own culture. So it was kind of just like anticipating for me. Like, okay, what's it going to be?
[34:09] Kyle Hebner: Yeah. Because you were there like, like at the airport when the majority of us got off the plane and you know, you saw this like sea of black T shirts coming out. Ya. After getting off a flight for 13 hours, was there any like trepidation where you were like, oh no, what have I gotten into?
[34:28] Valerie Beck: No, for me. No. And that's the thing, like I, that's like something I would expect other people to have. Reaction.
[34:35] Kyle Hebner: Right. That's kind of what I was, I was getting at because I know some people would have.
[34:40] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[34:40] Kyle Hebner: Had that thought.
[34:42] Valerie Beck: For me, I just saw a bunch of tired people.
[34:46] Kyle Hebner: That's exactly what we did. We just wanted to go take a nap.
[34:51] Valerie Beck: But it's cool because then the, the fact that you kind of all were dressed made it easy for us to find you.
[34:58] Kyle Hebner: That, that, that's a good point. Yeah.
[35:00] Valerie Beck: And just to kind of get the vibe of things. Yeah. It, it kind of set that tone. I, I remember the first thing that happened when I got to the airport was that Teddy was in a corner being interviewed by like some Japanese newscaster.
[35:14] Kyle Hebner: Right, right.
[35:15] Valerie Beck: Really randomly.
[35:16] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[35:17] Valerie Beck: I don't think he was even in something like that conspicuous. It was like a T shirt and shorts.
[35:23] Kyle Hebner: T shirt and shorts. That was his attire. Yeah, but it is 30 degrees out and then he's wearing, wearing shorts. 30 Fahrenheit.
[35:32] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[35:32] Kyle Hebner: So I think that's zero Celsius. Yeah.
[35:35] Valerie Beck: But then you guys came in with the beards and the long hair and all that. And to me like, that's cool. Right. Because if I were, let's say like I had a group of, of hip hop heads go through Japan, we would be dressed in a completely different way. Right. You know, 90s, like Nike and Adidas and like baggy shirts. I'm always in a baggy shirt.
[35:58] Kyle Hebner: There's nothing wrong with that. Honestly. They're comfortable.
[36:01] Valerie Beck: Yeah. So it, it's like, oh yeah, we kind of, we dress the part when we're together kind of thing. So. Makes sense. Yeah. But then there's this part of it where it's, I think because you, and correct me if I'm wrong, but because you guys are kind of used to being treated with trepidation.
[36:24] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[36:25] Valerie Beck: There's that expectation that people are going to treat you differently. So first question is, have you faced any discrimination because of your metalhead identity or Persona? Hey listeners, if you're enjoying the stories and insights from from the Ashes. Why not stay connected with our community? Join my mailing list for bi weekly updates on upcoming events, wellness tips, fun tidbits, and of course, new podcast episodes. I promise no spam, just valuable content to help you live your best life. Head over to www.intrepidwellness.life and sign up today. Don't miss out and let's keep the conversation going.
[37:10] Kyle Hebner: So obviously that's going to change from person to person, but I use the kill them with kindness perspective, you know, Like I don't give unless they're being completely unreasonable and they deserve a punch in the face. They're going to get mostly a mild mannered or for maybe even an overtly polite individual who's just like, yeah, man, that's cool. Yeah, whatever, you know, like what? You know, that's fine. So that's, that typically is my perspective. Now I am not typically at the brunt of any ire from people. Maybe a side eyed glance, but not, not typically. So I've been relatively successful in skirting around any of those really hard conversations with anyone being concerned about the way that I look. And I, I think for the most part people are of the, you know, just keep going and don't acknowledge it or it's just another person, you know. Like, I think for the most part, you know, like, and I've been, I, I wear some like pretty egregious shirts in, in public too. Like there, there's a, a classic cradle of filth shirt that I threw it away back when I was a kid, but it has a masturbating nun on it. That's on the back, it says Jesus is a ****. Now that is a perfect black metal shirt. Right. And it sends exactly the message they want. You know, I've worn that around a tiny town in Michigan and no one's batted an eye at me. So like, you know, maybe other people I'm sure get, get that, that ire, but I've been lucky enough to escape most of it. But so like, yeah, for the most part it's kind of just like, all right, you have your opinion and I have mine. That's fine. Like, let's just bury the hatchet and move on. You know, I don't have time to be arguing with you about this.
[39:06] Valerie Beck: Well, that's what I find fascinating is maybe it's so left field.
[39:11] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[39:11] Valerie Beck: That it kind of just goes over their head.
[39:13] Kyle Hebner: Right. Maybe that's it. It's just, it's performative or it's just. Or their brain filters it out. They're just like, keep walking.
[39:20] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[39:21] Kyle Hebner: Yeah. Maybe that's it. I don't know. We'll have to find someone who actually has had those, those conversations with people that have had. Maybe they walked by a church one time with that shirt and they've had a few people that, you know, were really let them have it.
[39:37] Valerie Beck: I wonder.
[39:37] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[39:38] Valerie Beck: If anyone's out there. I kind of want to know. Because, you know, the thing is like, you could be asking for a fight, right?
[39:45] Kyle Hebner: Sure.
[39:46] Valerie Beck: Sometimes.
[39:46] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[39:47] Valerie Beck: And the thing is like, there is something about being so out there with your opinion that people don't want to touch it. Because if, if you're like, let's fight authority and all of that, then people are going to try to fight that fight most of the time. But if it's like death and Satan and all that, and it's. It's almost like for a lot of people, they're, they're scared to even touch it.
[40:10] Kyle Hebner: Right.
[40:10] Valerie Beck: I wonder.
[40:11] Kyle Hebner: And that's possible. That's possible. You know, and yeah, maybe. Maybe it is.
[40:16] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[40:17] Kyle Hebner: It's hard to say. Everyone's obviously going to be a bit different.
[40:19] Valerie Beck: So the weird thing I feel, and also correct me if I'm wrong, is like I don't feel like there's that internal intention to be like that. Right. It's kind of just outward. Like a.
[40:30] Kyle Hebner: Perform.
[40:30] Valerie Beck: Like you said, performative, almost.
[40:32] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not like the loud T shirts that I wear in the battle vest, you know, like, if you saw me on my day to day, I'm sitting on my couch playing video games, you know, like, I don't, I don't make trouble. I don't cause it. I just, I just like heavy music, you know? And you know, the old adage is, you know, we get our angst and we get our aggression, we get our emotions out when we listen to music, write music, go perform or go to a show and hang out with friends, you know, you, you go see. That's a good example. Yeah, you go see Anthrax and you know, you go get in the pit and you run around and you punch your friend and they punch you back and that's great. And then you can leave and you've gotten a lot of that, that emotion out where then you can go just like sit on your couch and be happy for the rest of the night, you know, like that's.
[41:27] Valerie Beck: Yeah, it's just life. Okay, so let, let's talk a little bit about Moshing Yes. And the cultural phenomenon of that. Right. And I will draw a parallel to what I know, which is ciphers in a hip hop circle, which is. Okay, yeah.
[41:45] Kyle Hebner: Okay. So what's a cipher in a hip hop show?
[41:47] Valerie Beck: So a cypher is a circle, but it can be a. So a cypher can be a rap battle, but it could also be a dance battle. And so let's just go for the dance parallel here. B boys and dancers will go in the circle and they'll take turns. Sometimes there'll be battles.
[42:02] Kyle Hebner: Yep, yep.
[42:02] Valerie Beck: Right, right. So originally it was battles between B boys and it was very aggressive. Oftentimes they would take that aggression outside of the circle as well. It was a little different, I think, than. Than the moshing thing, but that. That existed in that culture sometimes still does. So. Yeah. So moshing is interesting because. At least to me, because it. It's not really something. The aggression doesn't get carried outside. But you're not.
[42:30] Kyle Hebner: No, not typically, no.
[42:31] Valerie Beck: Yeah, but it exists there for you to get something out. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[42:37] Kyle Hebner: And a lot of it is, I'm sure, spur of the moment, but it's sort of. Sort of. The interesting thing about moshing is that we've amassed certain guidelines for moshing, you know, and this is something that if from the outside, it looks like a bunch of people slamming into each other, and it is. But there's also a. An unwritten rule where you look out for each other. Right. You're not deliberately trying to hurt someone. You know, so if you see someone fall, you pick them up, you make sure they're okay. If someone's having a hard time, you get them out of the circle. Like, we're all actually making sure that we are looking out for each other while having a good time. And you will also notice that when a mosh pit breaks out, there's individuals on the perimeter that will actually turn inward and watch the people going at it. And that's partly because it's interesting, but it's also, you know, there are some people who are monitoring, making sure that, okay, I'm not part of this, but I'm making sure that everyone's safe. And if someone's coming in, you'll notice they'll put up their arms, they'll block them from getting all that force pushed back into the people behind them. That doesn't. It's not a hundred percent of the time, you know, functional, because a lot of times you get blown back because just someone running at you, you know, full speed. But yeah, so, so we, we have a generalized, you know, look out for each other mentality when, when one of those mosh pits erupts.
[44:15] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[44:16] Kyle Hebner: And then inversely, we have this other thing at thrash shows. Like we have. It's called the Wall of Death, you know, and this thing, I. I don't even know who made up. Made it up, I don't know. But like, it's where the front person of the band will split the audience down the center. It's like, okay, right hand, go all the way to the right side of the auditorium. Left, go all the way to the left. And then when I say go, you're gonna run into each other and murder each other. And so I've been witness to a fair few of those and they're very fun, but it's very similar. It's. Again, it's not actively trying to hurt each other, but it's just another form of just like, like two opposing armies on a battlefield, you know, colliding like 300 or something, you know.
[45:05] Valerie Beck: Yeah. Okay, so here's what I'm thinking as you're describing this. And I don't know if this is the direction you thought I would take it. However, what I'm getting out of what you're describing is that it, it is very almost anti ego, so.
[45:23] Kyle Hebner: Oh, okay. Yeah.
[45:26] Valerie Beck: Because all of a sudden you have a bunch of people. It's. And it's not about one person. A moshing is. I don't think it's ever about one.
[45:32] Kyle Hebner: Person because like I've seen a one person mosh pit. It is very sad, but it does, it does happen.
[45:39] Valerie Beck: Okay. But for the most part, I would say in the majority of cases it's more than an important person and it's not really about them because. And if it is, it's not about really them impressing anyone or being seen in that light. It is a being seen for the raw emotion, maybe. Or in the case of the wall of death, then it is more of a collective, just like it's not even chaos. Cause that sounds very organized, but I mean.
[46:11] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, yeah, Column A, column B kind of thing. It's definitely a little chaotic. It's definitely a little organized. Yeah, yeah, like, like there's. I would argue that there is an individual component to it, you know, because you are getting your own personal frustrations and anger out. Maybe you know, like you had a bad day at work or, you know, you know, any, any number of frustrating things about life. You know, you go to a show and you can get out those Aggressions. And everyone else is doing that too. So you're. You're. You're doing that together in a safe. Relatively safe air quotes. A relatively safe environment. You know, I have had friends who have gotten seriously hurt in mosh pits. So it's not. Obviously it's not perfect, you know, like one guy in a Dragon Force mosh pit, of all places. Dragon Force is like this, like, super flowery. Not flowery is not the right word, but like, they're a power metal band, and power metal bands don't typically get a lot of mosh pits. They do happen, but it's less common at power metal shows, especially these days. Not sure why, but at a Dragon Force concert, this guy broke his arm and had to go to a hospital. Like, he had to leave the show early. So again, injuries do happen.
[47:33] Valerie Beck: Yeah, actually. So talking to a guy the other day who broke his toe. Mushing now. Yeah, but, yeah, so, I mean, undeniably, like, if you're gonna bang into each other, it's probably somebody's gonna get hurt sometimes. So.
[47:46] Kyle Hebner: Right.
[47:47] Valerie Beck: But yeah, I think that that is. It is a really interesting phenomenon and I think. I know it's a weird thing to call it a safe space because it's not technically a safe space.
[47:58] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, I don't know that safe space is the right word for it. And I don't know that I would want to designate it a safe space, but I know what you're like. We do have a sort of a communal understanding to keep an eye on each other and make sure that we're were looked after. Really?
[48:17] Valerie Beck: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was cool. I. The. The mosh pit, definitely in. In Japan was a tame version, I'm sure, but I got it. I got at least to see that.
[48:28] Kyle Hebner: So, I mean, so. So there was one. I forget the band who was playing was probably the one we were talking about. Yeah, that had the. That was a legit pit. Like, I've seen that. That one. I don't know how to say this properly, but, you know, that. That one really looked like an amazing pit. To be like. That was. That was. Fists were flying. It was people running into each other. It was very aggressive. You know, that was very similar to what you would see in the States or in Europe. But, you know, yes, the majority of the shows, culturally, Japan has a more of a perspective audience, less audience participation, more standing back and. And sort of like, you know, appreciating the music for what it is in the moment, you know, and, you know, we were told before the the shows that, you know, don't expect a lot of moshing because sometimes you people just want to stay in and observe, but so like it. But you also have to read the crowd because sometimes they're into it. And we. We've known plenty of Japanese bands that we've paid attention to, you know, and over the years we know they get pits over there. So we knew hits were a thing. But getting. Getting more of the day to day fans where, you know, maybe you do have to read the room a bit more. Maybe they don't. You just want to like hang out or if they start to move, you can start to move kind of thing. So it was being observant of what they wanted to do versus what we wanted to do was an interesting dynamic to play. And we actually spent a lot of time tapping each other in the crowds. Okay, hey, we want to make sure that these people back here can see, so let them go to the front. And we were trying to be as accommodating as possible.
[50:23] Valerie Beck: Yeah, I know, I could tell. I think that there are the. So everyday. Let's call them everyday fans for now. Everyday fans exist everywhere. Right. And so. But then there are the hardcore fans and those are the people who really understand the culture. So I think that's where the divide is. Like, we don't. We didn't know who in the shows who we were gonna get.
[50:45] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, right.
[50:46] Valerie Beck: Yeah, yeah. Because I found myself like, even. Even in the States, being at certain shows where the crowd didn't really understand what was going on, even though it was like a, you know, a certain music genre and stuff. And so, like in those cases, like, if I tried to start a cipher, no one was going to join me or I'd have to try really hard. Right? Yeah, so, yeah, definitely. Because also if you start trying to mush and nobody wants to, it's also like kind of. Kind of feel bad about it too.
[51:14] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
[51:17] Valerie Beck: All right, cool. All right, so I think we're going to wrap up our conversation, but there's any other thoughts that you have that or any points that you wanted to hit before we wrap up today?
[51:29] Kyle Hebner: No, not just listen to more heavy metal. Like, go back, listen to. If you need an introduction to heavy metal, go back and listen to the classics. There's not a one size fits all kind of thing, so keep that in mind. So if you go back and listen to Painkiller by Judas Priest, Right. I would point you there very specifically because they listened to what was happening around them and transformed Into a. Like a new band. Go back and listen that album. Go back and listen to Iron Man. Go back and. You know. But if those bands don't float your boat, don't. You don't have to stop there. Like. Like, I've been. I've been trying to find bands for Valerie here, and I've been sending her. I knew that she liked the crossover thrash band from the Nagoya show. So I've been trying to find bands that are similar to that, that really I think she might like. And now we're kind of whittling it down to some concepts, some themes, and we're working. It's a work in progress. So you start with something you think they know where they're from, familiar with. Like, I know she likes hip hop, so there's a band biohazard out there that maybe she'll. She'll vibe with. When she doesn't like that, that's fine. That you don't have to. So we'll move on. We'll look at something else, you know, so there's plenty of bands out there to listen to, to get inspired by, to just go bang your head or even, you know, deep, meaningful lyrics. Like, we have the whole gambit. Like, I. I wanted to put this in front of your face. Maybe I'll send Valerie. I'll send this to you later. There's a flowchart someone put together, and they had heavy metal at the top, and they had like 50 sub genres under underneath it. Right. You know, like, there are so many different things under the banner of heavy metal that if you don't like that doesn't mean you don't like all heavy metal. You just don't. You don't like that one thing. So I think that's. That's the important thing thing is that there's something out there for you. You just have to find it. You need. You need your Something Wicked album to make you go, oh, I need to dig deeper into that.
[53:43] Valerie Beck: Yeah, okay. I said, I know it was the last question, but I actually have more points.
[53:49] Kyle Hebner: I could talk forever about metal. And I'm getting more comfortable too, so this is a lot better.
[53:55] Valerie Beck: Okay. Because, like, I. I remember. I don't know if it was you or if it was Pete, but some would ask me, you know, what kind of metal did I listen to? Or do I know these bands, Et cetera, et cetera. And Maximum the Hormone came.
[54:09] Kyle Hebner: Maximum the Hormone? Yeah, that. That was me. I think that was okay. Yeah, because we were. We were standing there. That was the Nicole show.
[54:15] Valerie Beck: Okay. Okay. So, like, I remember why I know a maximum hormone and why I. This was like my only, like, very, very, like a blip in time venture into metal was in college and I watched Death Note and. And I would. You know, a lot of people get their angry angst in their teenagers. I got it much closer to my later teenage and early twenties. I would say even mid twenties, but I was very angsty in college, for sure. And I remember, like, blasting that for, you know, a good while. Just those two songs. I didn't know any of those songs. I didn't have access, but that was kind of like, you know, that it felt really good to have that music because I really felt it.
[55:03] Kyle Hebner: Yeah.
[55:04] Valerie Beck: Yeah. So I think that's why I really mag, you know, that that kind of music actually is very attractive to me.
[55:13] Kyle Hebner: I love it.
[55:14] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And also just the theme of Death Note too. There it is about facing death and like, and the. Your destruction of self and, you know, actually, what do you say, like, that anime is about bringing about your own destruction?
[55:31] Kyle Hebner: Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I. I thought Death Note was very poignant. I very. I very much like that. Absolutely.
[55:37] Valerie Beck: Yeah. Okay, so this is a question I should have. Should have asked you in the beginning, but that's. Okay. Is what has metal in your life? Has it helped you overcome any significant life event or, like, difficulty? What has it brought to you that makes it so near and dear to your heart and continues to do so?
[56:03] Kyle Hebner: That's an excellent question. And metal, like, continues to inspire and I continue to draw strength from it on the daily. So a lot of heavy metal talks about loss, you know, the loss of a loved one, the loss pets, you know. You know, there's a great album called. I forget the name of it off the top of my head, but it's about Spirit of Drift is the name of the band. And the two. Two of the members in that band actually lost their dogs around the same time. They wrote a concept album that both of their. Their dogs met up in some ethereal afterlife plane and then they fought evil together. So. So in order to honor their dogs, they wrote this, like, crazy concept album. So. So, you know, people are always talking about how to move forward while honoring that part of your past, you know, and I've been driven to tears listening to bands specifically. There's a Serenity song, man, it's off that first album. The name escapes me, but it's. It's about the loss of his wife and. And he just. It's just the emotion. He pours into it, like, knowing he's never going to see them again. But, you know, having. Finding the strength to persevere and honor that time that they had together, like, it's. So being able to process death, it's. It's helped me be able to process death in that way, you know, like, so I don't typically look at it in the same way that a lot of people don't even want to think about it. They don't want. They don't want to deal with it up until it's right in their face. And now. Okay, now I don't know how to process this because it's this immense loss. We all go through it. It's a part of life is death. Right. It's the yin and yang, so to speak. Right. And. But so learning how to process these emotions before actually losing someone in a healthy way, you know, I think is. Is. Is meaningful to me personally. Now I'm. I'm in a band. You can see my flag behind me more in the light. So a lot of our songs deal with. With loss and how. How unfair life can be. The disparity of. The disparity between those who are doing well and those who are not, you know, and very specifically, Dwayne, the guitarist, wrote a song called Take youe Pain Away. It was all about watching his. His wife's father die of cancer and not being able to meaningfully comfort him in his last days. So this. This song was all about the pain and emotion that we're feeling while not being able to take your pain away from, you know, having to go through cancer. And, you know, he did eventually pass away. And there was another song that we wrote called Carry the Flame, and it was. It was about memorializing him in a song. Right. So, you know, it was just, you know, Dwayne's way of sort of, like, processing and, you know, moving on again, honoring those that we lost and left behind, but being able to move forward in a. In a healthy way.
[01:00:01] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[01:00:02] Kyle Hebner: Does that make sense?
[01:00:03] Valerie Beck: Yeah. And it's really beautiful, too. I think processing emotions that a lot of people don't want to deal with is. Yeah, it makes total sense.
[01:00:15] Kyle Hebner: So for those of you listening on audio, I have my cat in my lap. His. His name is Bruce Kittinson. Bruce Kittinson is a reference to Iron Maiden's singer Bruce Dickinson.
[01:00:27] Valerie Beck: Okay. Oh, he's so cute. All right, well, okay. I think we'll wrap up the conversation there. It's been amazing. I know that we could talk about a lot of Other things, but just so that we can have.
[01:00:41] Kyle Hebner: Yeah, just so this isn't four hours long, but.
[01:00:45] Valerie Beck: Yeah.
[01:00:45] Kyle Hebner: But first of all, well, no, thank you for having me on. I very much appreciate the time to talk and I appreciate the conversation, and I hope we get something useful out of it.
[01:00:55] Valerie Beck: I think we did. I think people are going to really enjoy listening to it. And, you know, a lot of the stuff that you say about getting emotions out and, you know, facing the darker parts of life, I. Relates with everyone whether they love metal or not, so.
[01:01:11] Kyle Hebner: Right. Yeah, I think. Think so.
[01:01:13] Valerie Beck: Yeah. So hopefully everyone tries listening to a little bit more metal from this too.
[01:01:18] Kyle Hebner: Yeah. And if you know how to find me, I'm Kyle Knight on Facebook. I'm here. So if you have questions, you want to reach out, or if you know how to get a hold of Valerie or get a hold of me, that's fine too. You know, I'll. I'll help. Help find something that works for you.
[01:01:31] Valerie Beck: Amazing. All right, thank you.
[01:01:33] Kyle Hebner: Thank you so much.
[01:01:39] Kyle Hebner: Hey, Valerie. So you asked me last night where the sort of anti religious, anti authoritarian aspects in metal come from, and I think I missed an opportunity because I.
[01:01:55] Kyle Hebner: Went out of my way to talk.
[01:01:56] Kyle Hebner: About, like, how you love punks did it first. And I really don't think that's necessarily an incorrect answer, but I think that may have been a little bit too literal. Um, so what. What I really. The sentiment that I really want to convey here is that it comes from observation, looking around you and thinking about what is being said and what is actually being done and the disparity between those two things. Right. You know, in. In America, we're talking.
[01:02:31] Kyle Hebner: We're.
[01:02:31] Kyle Hebner: We're taught American exceptionalism. We're talking about how we're the bastion of hope and freedom and equality and then. But, you know, when you actually look at what's going on, even 40 years ago, not just recently, you know, you had income inequality, you had poverty, you had, you know, drug addiction with nowhere for those people to go to get help. Um, you know, you know, if you're looking at those things, and rightfully you should be angry about those things, you should be incense, you know, in. In the most powerful, you know, highly funded, rich country in the world, why do we still have these problems? You know, it's almost as though certain people have thumb on the scale and they want what they want and it excludes you. Right. You know, this. This is a lot of where that anger comes from. Okay. And now turning my thoughts toward religion. So I think initially there's kind of two different thoughts here. But initially, I think Satan was used really to just scare people. Like, he's the great adversary. Especially like in the late 70s, 80s is very specifically in. In the 80s, you had the Satanic panic, right? You had people just scared to death that Satan, the Lord Lucifer is coming to get them, right? And he's actively in your home, he's actively in your community, and he's being talked about on Oprah and Geraldo Rivera as all these cult members are coming on their shows and talking about, ooh, you know, Satan's coming to get you. And then, you know, so. So it was very much used as a trolling device on one. On the one hand. On the other hand, you know, you have very real trauma that exists within the church that is not as often spoke about as it should be. You know, you have. You have people in very high positions within the church who are abusing their power. They're abusing kids. They're abusing people. They're not. They're abusing each other, right? They're abusing the. The wealth that they've amassed. And, you know, when. When the Catholic Church turns a blind eye to literally all of that, and instead of punitive measures against the. The individuals who are to blame, they are literally just moved to another precinct, right?
[01:05:30] Kyle Hebner: New.
[01:05:31] Kyle Hebner: New parish. Sorry. No, that's not right. That's ******* bullshit, right? So when. When we see that that's. That's a cause for anger. And then in addition, in my own experience, my own personal perspective on it is that I do not believe in a God. I think religion is bullshit. But see, like, the thing is, most people talk about this sort of like religion is to blame. But, you know, also, like, very seldom do I get represented in the fact.
[01:06:09] Kyle Hebner: That, like, you know.
[01:06:09] Kyle Hebner: No, no, no, no. I've thought about this. I've thought about this pretty deeply and sincerely. That, you know, logically I have not seen the evidence to conclude that there is or is not, but certainly either case, that. That there is a God, right? So you can't prove a negative.
[01:06:30] Valerie Beck: Right?
[01:06:31] Kyle Hebner: You can't prove that there's not one. But you've never been able to show me evidence to support your perspective that there is one. So, you know, this is. This has caused me specific frustration and anger when it comes to the topic of religion. Um, so, yeah, yeah, I think. I think those are some of the key components that, you know, sort of manifest in the anger against religion. And also, like, religion is a point of authority too, right?
[01:07:06] Kyle Hebner: So you know, I think they all.
[01:07:07] Kyle Hebner: Kind of go into, like, the same or at least a similar box. So I think this is very, very succinctly summed up in the lyrics to Death's Crystal Mountain. And I'm just going to read the lyrics through the chorus because I think they're. They're ******* brilliant. Built from blind faith Passed down from self induced fantasy Turn a page to justify conjuring power it opens wide on your seventh day Is that how it's done? Twisting your eyes to perceive all that you want to assume from ignorance? Inflicting wounds like a cross turned dagger? Inside Crystal mountain, evil takes its form Inside Crystal mountain, commandments are reborn and now this is all stemming from Chuck Schuldinger's experience with people using religion to justify their hatred. And that, succinctly, is where the problem lie.
[01:08:23] Valerie Beck: And that, my friends, is a wrap. Kyle Hebner, everyone. Thanks for listening.
