[00:00] Valerie: Rise, Renew. Reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where every story ignites hope and healing.
[00:20] Hello everyone, and welcome back to from the Ashes. My name is Valerie Beck and I am your host today. And today I have a very special guest. Her name is Ellie Yang Camp and she is an artist and Asian American community educator from the San Francisco Bay area.
[00:35] She is a proud daughter of Taiwanese immigrants. She has been a high school history teacher, a full time parent, a calligrapher, an anti racist teacher, and now an author.
[00:45] She has a bachelor's degree in political science from UC Berkeley and a master's degree in education with an emphasis in teaching of social studies from Stanford. Her first book, Louder Than Asian American Identity, Solidarity and Self Love, which unpacks the racial experiences of Asian Americans under the system of white supremacy, was published just recently.
[01:06] October 2024 with Heyday Books. Congratulations, Ellie, and welcome to the show.
[01:11] Ellie Yang Camp: Thank you, Valerie. It's great to be here with you.
[01:14] Valerie: It's so great to be here with you too. I would love to start off with a bang. We're going to really get into a lot of the themes of your book, but as someone who actually on the surface has a very of background to you, I wanted to kind of share my experiences and my processing when it came to bringing you onto the podcast because I actually had to go through a lot of my own stuff.
[01:37] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay. Yeah.
[01:39] Valerie: I am also the child of Taiwanese immigrants. My parents are from Taiwan. They're my. My grandparents are from China, actually. And, you know, I also have two degrees, one in psychological services and one in international education.
[01:52] So we kind of like, you know, cross paths a little bit here.
[01:57] When I was younger, I really had to grapple with my Asian American identity. And it's become to a point right now where I actually have kind of set it aside and I've kind of developed a more global identity.
[02:11] And so when I was approached for the podcast, it was actually Jeffrey who approached me. I was like, I'm willing to bet that probably I was chosen not because of the Rise from the Ashes theme, but probably because I'm.
[02:26] I seem to be Asian American.
[02:28] And so it is something that I haven't thought about. And it's like, you know, oftentimes I'm not. I don't consider myself the authority. And it is interesting to see that I was chosen kind of because of my identity or my apparent identity.
[02:43] Right.
[02:44] So, and I love your quote here that I have on this postcard that you've designed is learning to love ourselves as Asian Americans. Is embracing the truth that we are many, many things.
[02:56] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[02:56] Valerie: And so I love. I would love to kind of dig into a discussion of, like, what it means to be Asian American today, starting with your own story. So I always ask people about a From the Ashes story and your.
[03:10] The theme of your book is identity, solidarity and self love.
[03:13] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[03:14] Valerie: So I'd love for you to share a story where you've had to grapple with your identity and how that developed your self love.
[03:20] Ellie Yang Camp: Well, I'm trying to decide if I should tell you a long story or a short story, I think. Well, let's talk. I'll start with what we have in common. So it's like, like I am the child of Taiwanese immigrants.
[03:32] You're. You're an immigrant or.
[03:34] Valerie: No, I was born in New York.
[03:35] Ellie Yang Camp: You were? Oh, you were born in New York. Oh, I was born in New York too. And so my family moved to California when I was just a baby, though. So I've grown up and lived in the Bay Area most of my life.
[03:46] But coming from a Taiwanese family, it was always instilled in me that we were Taiwanese. And so I would think in my younger days that was probably how I would consider myself.
[03:58] It's just like that, that ethnic cultural part.
[04:02] But as I grew up and I started, you know, like in high school, I take took AP US History. You know, I started to develop a love just for learning history in general.
[04:12] And after I took that class, I was kind of like, I think I want to be a U.S. history teacher. And so I can kind of remember this was the first time I felt like my racial identity might hold me back.
[04:26] Because when I had said this to family members, I had an elder family member tell me, you know, white people aren't going to want to learn about their history from people that look like us.
[04:37] And it was like the first time anyone had ever said something like that outright to me that, like, you might actually not be able to do what you want to do simply because you're you.
[04:48] And I think, you know, being a woman, you kind of get some of those messages growing up anyway. But I think this was the first time it was very specifically having to do with race.
[05:00] And I don't even think at that point I would have been able to point out to anybody that, that it was a racial thing. It was just kind of this understanding of like, oh, yeah, I'm Taiwanese, yeah, we're Asian.
[05:11] Or like, I know I'm not a white person kind of thing, but, you know, I, you know, I've Been described as stubborn many times. But I think what it is is I.
[05:21] Friends have told me I have a very strong sense of self, right? Like, I kind of know who I am. I know what I like, I know what I want to do.
[05:30] And so I kind of knew. I was like, I really feel like this is what I want to do. Like, I want to be a high school history teacher. And I knew it wasn't like, a super lofty goal.
[05:42] Like, it wasn't considered, like, you know, I wasn't being a doctor or a lawyer or anything like that. It was just like, why a teacher kind of thing? But it was just something that I knew about myself.
[05:53] And I was like.
[05:54] And I think, like, my parents especially would be like, well, what about this? Like, you know, if you have to work in a school, why not be an administrator, like a principal?
[06:02] Like, that would be more prestigious. Or if you have to teach, why history? Why not, like, science or math? Like, that would seem more viable as an Asian person or something like that, or maybe even more reputable, especially living in the Bay Area, where it's like, you know, Silicon Valley, tech, all that kind of stuff.
[06:20] And, like, I would. I would hear these responses, and I would just, like, in my head, I'd be like, no, that's not me.
[06:29] So, but, like, as I was going through that process, right, eventually throughout my life, I started encountering more of these, like, racialized experiences.
[06:40] I kind of always knew that I was Asian, but I didn't really know what it meant, you know? And I also. I was the type of person that I had enough sense of self where I was like, well, I don't want to be a white person, but I also don't know what it means to be me racially in the world.
[06:56] And as I'm like, you know, going through my work life, going through, like, my social life as an adult, I'm kind of getting these reactions from people that feel kind of limiting, right?
[07:07] They're putting me in a box, and, like, figuring out what that box was was kind of like. Like, sometimes reactions would catch me off guard. I'm like, I thought everybody would be treated the same, right?
[07:18] I thought, you know, why am I not welcomed in this space? Or why? Or the best one is, especially living, like, in a progressive area. It's like, you're telling me that I'm welcomed into this space, but then when I get there, you treat me really strangely.
[07:34] And I'm like, I'm not really sure what all that is about sometimes, you know, but the more I, like, learned about history, the more I learned about race. I was like, oh, you know, I think there is a very much a racial component to this that even in progressive spaces exists.
[07:47] But we just, they like, tried to not like, talk about it too much or like, like to pretend that it doesn't exist. So I think as I started to develop, develop more of my racialized identity and learning what it meant to be Asian American, learning more about Asian American history as well as U.S.
[08:03] history, like racial, racial U.S. history, black history, all that kind of stuff, like, it started to like, make more sense to me.
[08:12] Valerie: Yeah.
[08:13] Ellie Yang Camp: And so like, for me, I don't know if there was definitely like a whole, like, it was just like a moment. But I think as I walked through my life, I did make a choice at some point where I was like, I'm not gonna put up with this anymore.
[08:27] Valerie: Yeah.
[08:27] Ellie Yang Camp: Right. Like, I, I think I was experiencing of things where I assumed in certain institutions people shared my values of racial justice, that the goal is for everybody to be treated the same and us to have equality.
[08:43] And then, you know, the more you poke at it, you start to realize at some point not everyone actually wants that. Especially if, you know, there are white people in power.
[08:54] It's like they, they want to agree with you, but at some point they will find it threatening. And so I think the more I stumbled upon those situations, at some point I made a decision.
[09:04] It's like, I'm not gonna do this anymore. Like, I think, I think there's more for me outside of these institutions. I think there's a different path. I think people are telling me that I have to be a certain way or I can't do certain things.
[09:20] And I'm thinking, well, maybe I just need to find different friends or maybe I just need to find other people that are going to help me along my way. Because it's pretty clear that, you know, whatever path I'm on right here, there's a, there's a, there's a dead end at some point.
[09:38] Valerie: Okay.
[09:39] Ellie Yang Camp: That people are trying to hide.
[09:40] Valerie: Yeah. I would like to dig into a little bit of the white supremacy and self love connection.
[09:48] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay.
[09:49] Valerie: And also because in my mind. Right. I think I call it something different. I would say, like, also there's this tendency to. There's an American ideology that we all have that determines our values and what's, what's important, what we focus on.
[10:06] Right. And so that whether you're white or not, you end up adopting those values and what you should put your attention on. Yeah. And so you end up like, because if we call it white supremacy, then it's like we're very much focusing on what they think is important.
[10:23] And we adopt those things, we believe those are important because they think it's important.
[10:28] And so sometimes you end up with either like, I guess, self deprecating behavior, beliefs about who you are and what you can do. I think you talked, you touched a little bit upon that.
[10:43] But also like highlighting institutions that were not really made to help us or like.
[10:52] Ellie Yang Camp: Right. They're not, they're not built to help us thrive. Right, right.
[10:57] Valerie: So can you unpack some of that for the audience today? Like why that is and like what that has to do with self love?
[11:05] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah. So there's actually a chapter in my book, it's called we are Indoctrinated. So a lot of this has to do with what I would call indoctrination. Whereas white supremacy is a whole system.
[11:16] And so it teaches us to think and behave in ways that uphold the system, even if it is at detriment to ourselves. So as people that are not white, we still are taught to think and behave in ways that uphold the supremacy of whiteness.
[11:31] And so like we get it through everything, like through media, through school, through, you know, whatever. It's like when we only learn histories about white people, we learn that white people are more important than other people.
[11:41] And when we don't learn about our own histories, we learned that we don't matter. Right. Or if we're just like watching TV or like absorbing media, it's like when we see white characters always the star.
[11:54] Right. We learned that white people are always the star. And then we have to be supporting roles. Like our role is only to be a support. Right. And so that it's not that we're necessarily erased anymore.
[12:05] I mean, like now you might see more people that look like, like us, but it's like what kind of role and identity are we given? Are we, do we get to be a full person or do we only exist because we are help the main character?
[12:19] Right. And so like white supremacy as a system operates in a very similar way. So I kind of talk about in the book, the beginning of the book, it kind of builds the system of white supremacy.
[12:31] But in general, people of color are racialized based on a need for labor.
[12:39] So part of the system of white supremacy and capitalism is to extract our labor. So, so this is founded on the like, enslavement of black people originally. But then, you know, even for minorities, racial minorities that are kind of like in the middle of the racial spectrum, right?
[12:57] Even for Asian Americans, like, our value, right, Kind of often gets commodified into like. Like, why are we valuable? Because we work hard, right? And where does our value come from?
[13:08] It's because my work is perfect, right? And it's like, if I'm not behaving in ways where it's like, perfect, I'm doing everything right. If I'm not working, all of a sudden, I have no value.
[13:19] And so the system of white supremacy, like, these are all the things that we are absorbing, right? Whether we really realize it or not. But, like, you know, as we grow, and it's like, because it rewards us in certain ways, like if we work really hard, you might get like a pat on the head and like, oh, you're such a good Asian, right?
[13:36] You're really smart. You're good at math, right? You know, you're really good. But if you, like, start to ask questions or poke holes and they go, oh, no, no, no, that's bad.
[13:45] And so you kind of learn through this kind of conditioning to uphold the system of white supremacy and the superiority of whiteness, regardless of how you identify, right? And so I think it's actually really interesting in terms of my own story, because I think I said before where it's like, I knew I never.
[14:04] I was never one of those Asians that wished I was a white person. Like, I was always like, no, I'm a. I'm Asian. I'm proud to be myself.
[14:13] But at the same time, you're still absorbing these ideas of like. Like, I can still love myself, but maybe that's still not as good as being a white person. Or, you know, it's clear that white people get certain privileges that I don't get.
[14:33] And so at some point, like, the self love comes into it where it's like, I had to kind of grapple with a lot of those messages that I had absorbed and really, like, look at myself.
[14:48] So I think. Is it chapter nine? No, I forget the chapter numbers. It's called.
[14:54] It's the We Are the Para. We Are a Paradox chapter. But I kind of tell this story about.
[15:01] I was in my early 20s, and at the time, this was like the early 2000s. So a magazine called Audrey Magazine was in publication. It was like the first Asian American women's fashion magazine.
[15:11] So it was one of those, like, really nice glossy magazines from back in the day. And I remember being so thrilled at getting it, and I subscribed and I would get it in the mail, and then, like, when it first came out, I was just like so excited about it.
[15:25] I would share it with my, my Asian American girlfriends, all that kind of stuff. But as time went on, I started to realize my feelings towards it started to get a little bit kind of complicated because I would like look at these fashion spreads with Asian models wearing these clothes and I would be like, it doesn't look as good or glamorous or perfect as when I read fashion magazines that are mostly like Vogue or something like that of like white people.
[15:54] Right. And so then I started to think that the magazine wasn't good enough.
[16:00] Right.
[16:01] And then I eventually like, was telling this to my friend and having to actually say the words out loud, being like, I just think these clothes would look better on a white person.
[16:11] I was like, oh my gosh. Like, is that what I'm thinking? Like, is that what those feelings are coming from? Like, so it's like when I finally actually like admitted it to myself, I was like, oh my gosh.
[16:21] Because I would have at the time been like, told you. Oh no, I think racism, racism is terrible. Oh yeah. Like, I'm totally proud to be Asian American, but still like the way I'm interacting with myself, my own self image and seeing reflections of myself.
[16:36] Right. It's like it kind of makes there's a discomfort, right?
[16:40] Valerie: Yeah.
[16:40] Ellie Yang Camp: And so like, I think first of all realizing that's what was happening and me catching it and be like, oh my gosh, like I've been indoctrinated. Like, I can't believe that came out of my mouth.
[16:52] I can't believe that this is where my feelings are coming from. Like, you know, I think sometimes people feel shocked about it and then like, what I don't want people to do is internalize it.
[17:04] And being like, oh, that means I'm a bad person.
[17:06] Right. Because I think sometimes that's what happens. It's like, oh, there's just something wrong with me. Why do I feel like this? And so one of my goals of the book is to try to help people see the system of white supremacy and that it's operating.
[17:19] So it's like instead of internalizing it and kind of putting the self blame on ourselves is realizing when we have feelings like that, that it's, it's a symptom of us being in the system of white supremacy.
[17:32] Valerie: Yeah.
[17:33] Ellie Yang Camp: So, you know, and, and that's not a personal, personally shameful thing. Right. So to have those feelings of discomfort is like just, it's like totally appropriate for someone placed in that position to feel like that.
[17:47] And so what I want us to do is to kind of look at the system itself and be like, oh, this system is making me feel terrible about myself to the point where it's like, I can't even believe that clothes would look good.
[17:58] As good on me as it would as a white person. Right. So like, it's like, well, then the system is trash. Right. It's like, so, like, what do we do about the system?
[18:07] And how do we become more attuned to what the thing. The ways that the system is trying to get us to feel about ourselves. But yeah, so it's like, like so much of that work is like learning to love yourself.
[18:20] Right. To have compassion on what it means to be living in a system like this that is constantly, like, telling you confusing things about what it means to be you.
[18:31] Valerie: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And I have observed that type of thinking in some of my friends, mostly of people who are in older generation than me.
[18:42] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay. Yeah.
[18:43] Valerie: Like Gen X. Right.
[18:45] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay.
[18:46] Valerie: Above mine. I'm a millennial, so.
[18:48] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay. I'm on the very low end of Gen X. Oh, yes.
[18:52] Valerie: Yeah. I actually want to tell a story because I think this is going to be really interesting historical context. So I grew up on Long island in the 90s, and at the time, hip hop was coming up.
[19:02] Right. And then there I was surrounded by. Okay, so I came from a mostly white neighborhood, but I moved to a very diverse neighborhood starting in junior high school, middle school.
[19:13] I think it was a very intentional choice that my parents made, but also it was a more highly, like, academic school.
[19:20] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[19:21] Valerie: So there were a lot of Asians and that was the first time I'd been surrounded by them. And so I have always been a little bit othered by both white people and Asian people.
[19:31] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay.
[19:32] Valerie: But I've. Some things that I've observed as I was growing up is that there was this movement to really appreciate Asianness from my peers.
[19:44] Sometimes it was a little bit immature, and sometimes it was really interesting. Like, the more immature part was like, oh, Asians are better than everyone. I don't know if you've heard of azn.
[19:52] Ellie Yang Camp: Right.
[19:53] Valerie: Like, everyone is.
[19:53] Ellie Yang Camp: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[19:55] Valerie: Like, we're just so cool. So, like, have you seen Mean Girls? It's like the cool Asians.
[19:58] Ellie Yang Camp: Right.
[19:58] Valerie: I would never got to be part of that clique. But, you know, and then there was just like, you know, but I feel like that's flipping the same script of like, just because you think we're supreme, we're going to be supreme.
[20:10] And I have a little bit of issue with that. Another thing that I did really appreciate, though, was, like, I had friends who introduced me to Taiwanese pop, K pop, J pop, like, and we listened to that.
[20:21] We started to consume Asian media, right? Not just Chinese media or any Korean dramas. And then, like, my Indian friends would watch Bollywood. And so it was like we were starting to see heroes that were on big screens in other worlds almost, right?
[20:40] And being like, well. And my reaction was like, well, why can't I just be a part of that world too? And. But it also helped me to appreciate, like, we.
[20:49] We don't need to always be clamoring for the recognition of white people in Hollywood would. Because we have something really cool over there that' going on too, and we can be a part of that.
[20:57] And it helped me to kind of, like, expand and just feel like I.
[21:03] I don't have to put myself in the box.
[21:05] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[21:06] Valerie: And I have to put myself in the box. And I also want to. I don't want to be the person who just is like, just because you think you're better than me, I can do the same thing to you and be like, I'm better than you.
[21:18] So I think, you know, there's always this parallel between what's going on the wider society and what's going on in our little micro environments. Because I feel like that the increased consciousness of, like, yeah, we, like, we can be Asian and we can be American, and we can be more than that was happening as I was growing up.
[21:40] So, yeah, I'd like to ask you a little bit about what is it about your generation? Maybe that. Where there was this more internalizing of, like, oh, that would look better on a white person, because, like, for me, I never had that experience.
[21:54] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay, interesting. So I do think, you know, even just the divide between Millennial and Gen X, like, the key thing is the prevalence of the Internet.
[22:03] So, like, when I think about how I grew up, like, the Internet wasn't really usable.
[22:09] Like, like, you couldn't really search for stuff on the Internet and get actually, like, a lot of things back probably until I was post college, like, maybe the. Sometime during college or post college.
[22:20] So it's like when you're having those, like, formative teenage years, right. It's like, you really don't have a lot of access to other imagery. Right. Or, you know, like, you talked about having access to movies or things like that from.
[22:34] From Asia, where you can, you know. So it's like, you know, when I was growing up, like, it was like VHS tapes, you know, so it's like, unless you could access this at a store that actually sold those things or had a friend that was flying between Asia and the U.S.
[22:50] like, it's like, just to have access to those things is harder. So I do think the fact that, you know, younger generations had so much more access to what other things because of, like, the Internet now with social media.
[23:02] Right. It's like, it's really not hard to find videos of people from across the world and see that other types of ways to exist.
[23:10] Exist, Right. Yeah.
[23:11] Valerie: Yeah.
[23:11] Ellie Yang Camp: Even for me, like, even seeing some of those things, I'm like, oh, wow. Like, you know, it kind of expands my mind of possibilities of how you can be as a person.
[23:21] But I would also say that there's a difference between some of that is like a. Like a. More of a. Like a cultural, ethnic identity of like, what does it mean to be.
[23:32] And engaging in those types of things. But when we talk about being American specifically, and I think. I mean, different people will identify with being American more closely or more broadly, depending on who they are, like, how much.
[23:45] And I. I think there are a lot of Asians that kind of have this, like. What do they call? Like, transnational identity, where they kind of go between the United States and Asia pretty regularly.
[23:56] Yeah. Right. And so they don't feel like their identity is like, what. What. What's the word? Like, trapped in one place. Yeah, Yeah, I would say, which is. Yeah. So you might be one of those people, which is awesome.
[24:08] And I think that can be extremely freeing. Right. I. The people. People that I talk to that can do that. It's very freeing. It lets, like, it's like when I get tired of, you know, the American way of things, I go to Asia, and then I can, you know, blend in and I can feel freer.
[24:23] But I think something. What my work tries to do and with the book is specifically when we talk about being American.
[24:30] Valerie: Yeah.
[24:30] Ellie Yang Camp: It's not just like a cultural thing. Right. And it's like, it's. It's. I'm like, it's great if you have options, but not everybody has options. Right, Right.
[24:39] Valerie: And.
[24:40] Ellie Yang Camp: And I think to have options is a privilege in certain ways. Right, Absolutely.
[24:46] And if you get into a situation where. Or we get into a situation where it's like, we are in America or in the United States and we can't go back to Asia or, you know, for whatever reason we choose to stay in the United States, when we are here, we are dealing with a very Specific system.
[25:06] Right. And so I think even just realizing that that system exists and it affects the way we.
[25:12] The way we behave here can be extremely empowering. And also in terms of being an American. Right. I think, you know, when you were talking about, you know, like, moving to an area where there were more Asians and the Asian, like, Asian power, like, I remember, I remember all of that.
[25:32] So it's like, I think, you know, it's like, yes, that can be like the beginning of a way some Asians start to feel self empowered where it's like, I'm okay too.
[25:42] But I think I want people to realize that it's possible to be very proud to be Asian and still be complicit and still, like, it's not like a system challenging thing.
[25:58] Yeah, okay. Because you can still be surrounded by Asians. Like, I live in an area that is very Asian heavy.
[26:05] Like, there's a lot of Asians. Like, it's like, if I wanted to, I could eat Asian food every day and only Asian food, and go to restaurants and businesses and only interact with Asian people if I really wanted to.
[26:14] But even in those worlds, like, unless we have an understanding of the greater context that we live in in the United States and how that plays in racially, we are still like, those still aren't challenging the system of white supremacy.
[26:29] So when we invest in those things thinking that, oh, this might get us more equality or more rights, unless we come up with solutions that are specifically considering the entire system of white supremacy, it's actually not doing anything to the system.
[26:45] So I think, I think the frustration that some, like, people like me that like, try to teach about, like, anti racism things like that is that sometimes Asian Americans can get a little too comfortable in that space where we're just like, we're just hanging out with Asians now and we're like, listening to our music and watching our movies and eating our food, and it's really nice.
[27:05] Nice. But, you know, especially as history kind of changes, like when our communities become less safe. Right? Like, these aren't just like aberrations. Like, these are actually very. These have very historical roots in terms of, like, the role that Asian Americans have been given to play in the.
[27:23] In the system of white supremacy, it has very much to do with the way we have also been indoctrinated not just to put whiteness on a pedestal, but to denigrate and like, distance ourselves from blackness and black communities.
[27:36] Right. And so we are constantly playing a role in that, whether or not we're aware of it or not, you know, and so I think my hope is just by becoming more conscious of who we are and the.
[27:50] Within the context of that system, it will. Will not only, you know, create better solutions for our own communities when we are experiencing hardship, you know, and then also. Right.
[28:04] The Asian American community is extremely diverse. So it's like, we're both through Taiwan, but, like, there are many Asian American communities that, like, even when people from Taiwan seem like we're doing pretty well.
[28:15] Right. Are experiencing a lot of hardship in terms of, like, socioeconomic, like, poverty rates, being targeted by incarceration and deportation, all those kinds of things. So it's like, you know, a lot of times people will look at stories of families like ours and be like, oh, Asian Americans, aren't we doing great?
[28:34] You know, seems pretty nice to be us.
[28:37] But the fact that we are. We are just like one of many. Right. And so when we come from a very diverse community. And so it's actually a disservice to our community to be putting people like us as the face and being like, see, everybody's like them.
[28:53] They're okay.
[28:55] And ignoring the very real needs of other people. And then also for me, I'm kind of like, please don't use me in that way. Yeah. Because, you know, that's just my family story.
[29:06] But at the same time, we have also benefited from, you know, trying to live the American dream, which is in itself, like a perpetuation of white supremacy, where it's like, we are just trying to assimilate and we're trying to become more like white Americans, but we find out at the end of the day, does it really protect us?
[29:25] It really doesn't.
[29:27] And, like, the protection and the safety and security that we think that we're earning by doing that is actually very shallow. Yeah. And so, like, how can we be doing things that aren't just trying to assimilate, but actually, like, creating deep roots through solidarity, through understanding our racialized identities, through working together with other communities of color to build these coalitions and things like that that really, like, those are things that have deeper roots that actually will create more safety and more vitality and health for our communities than like, what we're kind of this, like, more American dream story that everybody loves.
[30:08] But it. Unfortunately, it's. It's very flimsy. Yeah.
[30:12] Valerie: Okay, so there's one really important point that I want to point out here that I think oftentimes we don't acknowledge is this. It is kind of like a forced solidarity.
[30:23] And the reason for this is because, like, even white people, you can have diverse white people, but the tendency in America is for everyone to be like, we're white American.
[30:33] That's the American thing that happens then with. That's why we get grouped into Asian is because we all kind of look similar. Even though. Because, like, I've lived in Japan for a long time, and so in Japan, like, just because you're Japanese and just because you're Chinese or just because you're from Philippines doesn't mean we all identify as one.
[30:51] Right? Like, it's just. That doesn't happen there. We're very much separate in. But here, because we kind of all look similar, we're forced into the category of Asian American, and we're forced into the solidarity.
[31:06] And it's not something that is right or wrong. It just is. And so I think you make a really good point in that whether or not, like, this is right are helpful.
[31:18] It is also the reality that we're. That we're in. That we've been compiled into one group, and so it is necessary for us to then kind of work together.
[31:30] And I think that sometimes is met with a lot of resistance because it is like, you know, why can't you see our diversity as.
[31:39] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear that tension. Like, I think. Because.
[31:45] Let me see if I can explain this, like, in a clear way that will make sense. So I. It's interesting because we're talking about kind of like two. Like, having to balance out two different challenges.
[32:01] So, like, the first challenge is the fact that white supremacy does box us in. Right? It racializes us and says that, oh, we're a monolith, that we're all the same.
[32:09] Okay. And so then we feel this pressure that we're supposed to be a certain way. And then I think people like you and me will be like, no, I don't want to be that.
[32:16] Right. It's like, I'll just be like myself over here. Okay. So that these are like. Like, these More like, we would call, like, a colonized way of thinking, that you're all a monolith, that you all have to be the same.
[32:26] Okay. At the same time, we are dealing with the fact that the Asian American community is so diverse, it doesn't fit into that box. Okay. But because we're so diverse, it's like, do we really have anything in common?
[32:37] Like, it feels like the bonds of what we're supposed to be like is supposed to be the same seem to some people artificial. Right? Like, what do I really have in common with somebody that might look different from me, from a very different part of Asia, you know, all that kind of stuff.
[32:55] I think what happens though is when we feel like that the, the easier step people tend to turn to is this more kind of colonized mentality where it's like, I don't like what they're forcing me into.
[33:11] And so my reaction is to criticize all the other Asians that aren't like me or disagree with me, right? And so it's kind of this like, we kind of eat each other kind of thing, yet we're not spending that same energy criticizing the system.
[33:29] So this is actually very typical behavior. And so, like, I would argue that this is actually also enabling white supremacy because white supremacy wants us to attack each other other than the system.
[33:42] Because that way, like, we're. We're spending so much time arguing amongst ourselves that we can't. You know, it's like, then they're like, okay, sweet. They're like, they're weakening themselves by fighting with each other that we'll never have enough, like, time to like, think about the system or challenge it or things like that.
[33:59] And so I think what I'm. My hope is, is that as Asian Americans kind of stuck in this, like, weird back and forth of like, like, I just want to be myself.
[34:11] I don't want to be like, lumped in, but at the same time, I am lumped in, but I don't like the way I'm lumped in. You know, like this like, tension is like, we as Asian Americans also have to do the work of expanding our minds of who we allow to ourselves to be a part of, you know, So I think, because I think otherwise if we can feel very threatened, right?
[34:35] It's like, it's like, well, I me. And so I just want to be me, but somebody else is a different type of Asian from me. And so the idea that that is inherently threatening to me, like, is still.
[34:48] Is still a colonized white supremacist way of reacting. And so I think a lot of it has to do with us needing to do work on ourselves and like learning to have our own, like, passion for ourselves.
[35:04] So like, like I do write in the book, like, a part of this process is really taking the time to learn about what it means to have self compassion and self love.
[35:14] Because even that compulsion for us to be very critical of each other, critical of ourselves, being like, this is okay. That's not okay. Or like, I don't want, I don't like that.
[35:26] I don't like that, like, I, you know, like, that. That criticism and that harshness is still.
[35:33] It also reflects how we talk about ourselves to ourselves.
[35:37] Does this making sense?
[35:39] Valerie: Yeah. Yeah.
[35:40] Ellie Yang Camp: So. So I think part of it is, like, we. We inherit these ways of being just extremely critical with ourselves and each other. Like, nothing is ever good enough, right? So it's like, even if we're all the same, that's not good enough.
[35:52] Even if we're all different, that's still not good. Like, it's never right, you know? And so I think part of the learning to have compassion on ourselves and to just, like, sit and be like, you know what?
[36:03] This is really confusing. And this is a really difficult position to be put in, right? Where you feel like you're always, like, having to choose between different things. And so if we can even take the time to kind of, like, just be where we are and breathe, you know, and, like, create even just a little bit of space to be like, you know what?
[36:25] Like, I can. I can be kind to myself at least. Or it's like, I can realize that, like, trying to navigate this experience and these relationships with my family and my community and other Asians and the system, it's like, this is very complicated and confusing, right?
[36:43] So no wonder I feel.
[36:45] It gives me blah feelings all the time, right? Or no wonder I want to avoid it, because it's just. It's confusing and it's not necessarily fun, right? Yeah. So I think, like, the more that we can kind of press into really having compassion for that experience, like, I've learned that even when I interact with Asian Americans that are very different from me, they still have that kind of.
[37:09] That experience of having to be racialized in the system of white supremacy. They might not even be racialized in an identical way. But even just the fact that it's something that we all have to deal with is still kind of like a bonding experience.
[37:25] And so when we can kind of get to the truth of that and how. How difficult it can be, sometimes it's like, oh, it's like, you're different from me.
[37:34] I don't need to be like you. You don't need to be like me. But just the fact that we're both trying to navigate this very confusing thing in a way that often can cause us harm, I can respect that.
[37:47] I can empathize with that. And that can be the source of our bond. Not necessarily like, this external. Like, we don't have to speak the same language. We don't have to listen to the same music.
[37:57] We don't even have to have the same style. We don't have to like the same people, honestly. Right. Yeah. But just the fact that we are all trying to navigate this together and at the root of it, I think we're all trying to do the right thing, whatever that is.
[38:12] Right. And it might not, we might not stumble on the same. You know, what might be the right thing for you might not be the identical right thing for me to do, depending on who you are and the context you live in.
[38:23] But just the fact that we are all trying to pursue those things can be extremely bonding. And so I think sometimes there's, there's like that more human, kinder route. Right.
[38:36] Where it's like, yes, like we are all Asian American.
[38:39] And I think the quote on the post. Right. It was like, it's like some, it's like that acceptance of we are many, many things. I can accept that. I can love that we are so diverse.
[38:49] And at the same time I can also love that we are all trying to figure out this journey together, you know. And like, I think, I think so much of stepping into like that self love is like we just, we really do need to accept, expand how we conceive of what it means to be Asian American.
[39:06] Right. I think you talked about earlier where it was like, like you never really felt like identifying as Asian American was that important to you because it didn't seem like it had very much meaning.
[39:17] Valerie: Well, actually, I would take that back.
[39:19] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay.
[39:20] Valerie: I'll give you a little bit more context if that's okay. I actually did try really hard for a. Probably a good amount of years because when I did moved to that middle school and I started to form that because like I grew up in a place where I was the only Chinese person.
[39:37] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[39:38] Valerie: So. And I had to go to Chinese school.
[39:41] And my parents actually never really like talked about race, but they were like, you have to go to Chinese school.
[39:46] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[39:47] Valerie: So like naturally then there was this kind of like, oh, I guess I'm Chinese. But when it came to going into a place where everybody was kind of talking about it and everyone was owning their identity.
[39:58] Right. I'm Korean and I'm this and I'm that.
[40:01] I tried to fit in because I wanted to fit in.
[40:03] Ellie Yang Camp: Right.
[40:04] Valerie: I wanted to be one of the people. I wanted to be the cool kid too.
[40:09] And so I actually spent the next few years, like I, I think I joined the Asian American club in high school, which wasn't really that much of a club. But then like also in college, I ended up joining like the Taiwanese American Society and also the Chinese Student Association.
[40:24] And I would. The reason why I think what you're saying is very valuable is that I'm realizing very much now that those are very surface level relationships built off of like consuming culture and like kind of sharing the food and all that.
[40:37] It's like. But you don't get to know yourself as a person if you are only just consuming. What is the label of Asian? You're just following the crowd. Right. And so like, I think I didn't have that self awareness and the idea of who I am at an early age.
[40:54] I allowed the environment to mold me. And then I realized at some point that this wasn't serving me anymore and that this digs a little bit into my personal journey of like, there is a lot more that goes into that.
[41:06] But at the, the core of it, it was like I had to realize I can't rely on other people telling me who I should be, no matter how much I blend into it.
[41:17] Because at the end of the day, I'll never find myself.
[41:19] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[41:22] I think, you know, I, I. The way I imagine it, like I imagine you as a young person trying to engage with these clubs. I had a similar experience where it's like, I never like, I mean, I guess I grew up in an area that had enough Asians, but I also never really joined like those cultural affinity clubs because I felt like I didn't really need to because I was like, oh, I'm around Asians all the time.
[41:45] Like I don't, you know, and then like my, I think because my interests were not necessarily in learning about Taiwanese culture, like the cultural things. Like I was like, I'm concerned, what about justice?
[41:57] Let's talk about justice. Right? They weren't talking about justice. Right. And so then I would go to the places that were talking about justice that tended to be more multiracial.
[42:06] Right.
[42:07] Valerie: Yeah.
[42:07] Ellie Yang Camp: And so like I found there was, there were periods of my life where I found myself hanging out with. I mean, there were Asians in these spaces, but it wasn't because we were Asian.
[42:16] It was because we were interested in like the fight for racial justice.
[42:21] And you know, actually some, a part of my story is that, you know, I always.
[42:27] Sorry. Like there was a point where, when was this. I think it was like 2019. And I actually, I had joined a cohort, it was called, it was, it's by the center for justice and Renewal, but they had a cohort for emerging leaders of color.
[42:41] And I was just like, about to hit 40 barely made the cutoff because I was like, I would no longer be considered emerging.
[42:49] I was supposed to be established at some point. I was like, I think I'm still emerging. But I was talking to the woman who led it. Her name is Dr.
[42:56] Christina Cleveland. And I was telling her about, like, you know, my passion for like, racial justice. And then me also thinking that there weren't enough resources for Asian Americans to figure out who we were, all that kind of stuff, and talking about the community.
[43:11] And she like, looked at me and she was like. And I was telling her about my work and she was like, so you can talk about black history and Asian American history.
[43:21] And I was like, yeah, go to your people. You need to go to your people. And I was like, at that point in my life, I was like, but I don't want to go to my people because Asian Americans are annoying.
[43:33] They're annoying, right? It's like they're. We're always criticizing each other.
[43:38] Nothing's ever good enough. There's so much anti blackness. So it's like trying to talk to Asian Americans about race is a huge headache.
[43:44] Valerie: Yeah.
[43:45] Ellie Yang Camp: And I was just like, I don't want to.
[43:47] Like, it's so much nicer here, you know, it's like, why do I gotta go there? And so. But it like her, her words of advice rung in my ears because I was like, well, if I am going to do this work with integrity, right.
[44:03] What do I need to do for my own self to get myself to a place where I'm like, I am going to my people? And part of it was like, well, I think if you're going to say that you care about Asian American rights, you have to love Asian Americans.
[44:19] Right? You have to respect Asian Americans. And so I had a question myself. I'm all, do I respect Asian Americans? Do I love Asian Americans? Do I love myself? Do I respect myself?
[44:32] And so I think it's, you know, it's like, I think it probably. It did send me on this whole, like, you know, as I was writing this book, you know, like, it doesn't all happen at once.
[44:42] And it doesn't necessarily all happen, like step by step. It all kind of happens all in one big jumble. But like, I do think working on this book and writing it, like it was a four year process.
[44:52] So like throughout all of that, doing the research, like, I was also constantly going through these processes, processes of like, learning about the stories of other Asian Americans and their histories.
[45:04] And so also growing my love and respect for Asians that I probably previously thought were pretty annoying, honestly, because I only saw their behaviors, but I didn't really fully understand the context of where these behaviors were coming from.
[45:21] And so, like, the more I was able to learn about their stories, the more I was able to offer myself more love and compassion. I was like, oh, like, this is what it really means to love yourself.
[45:35] Like, this is what it really means to love your community. It's not so much these, like, superficial, like, it's time to go get boba and, like, you know, like, let's go watch, you know, like, crazy rotations or something like that.
[45:46] You know, like, those things can be part of it and they can be fun, but those are just, like, the surface level things. Like, those can be the easy things.
[45:54] But, like, when we really talk about, like, loving ourselves and really embracing our identities, it really is this very deep work that I think most of us don't get to because we don't even realize that we need to do it right?
[46:08] Because we're still thinking, well, we just need to make boba more popular, or we need to get people to watch more Asian American movies or things like that, where it's like, well, like, what does it really mean to grapple with who we are as people and our histories and our stories and actually, like, respect them and love them and not just think that they're inconveniences or shameful.
[46:33] Right. I think, you know, being the. The children of immigrants or, you know, especially I think about refugee communities. Right? It's like there are so many of those generations that just don't want to talk about the past because they're painful.
[46:45] Right. And so those histories don't get passed on through the family necessarily. Sometimes you have to do your own work of researching through books or reading stories or learning from other people about your own family's history.
[46:58] Right?
[46:59] Valerie: Yeah.
[46:59] Ellie Yang Camp: And, like, I think there can be frustration in that, but at the same time, trying to have compassion about, like, well, well, it must mean that those are really hard histories, and maybe they don't want to talk about it because it's just too hard.
[47:13] So, like, I can respect that. Like, I can. I can love them by respecting them in that way.
[47:19] Valerie: Okay.
[47:19] Ellie Yang Camp: You don't have to talk about it, but it doesn't mean I can't learn about it through other ways, you know? And so I think just, like, being more creative about it.
[47:27] Right. And I just. I just. I feel like there's just so much possibility when we. We start to scratch the surface of all of those things that can bring a lot of healing and bring a lot of hope to our communities.
[47:39] But I do feel like a lot of us kind of just get trapped in the.
[47:43] But I don't like. What if I don't like crazy rich Asians or. I've had. It's really funny publishing a book because I have had more than one person confess to me in secret.
[47:53] They're like, you know that book, Minor Feelings that is supposed to be like, the Asian American thing. They're like, I didn't like it. I personally did, like. I want to say Kathy Park Hong, I did love your book.
[48:02] I did love it personally, but I have had, like, other Asian Americans tell me, like, I didn't like it. And I was like, oh, well, why didn't you like it?
[48:09] And it's just like, you know, it's like they just have different types of lives. Right. Like, she's like an art artsy person. Like, I'm hearing from people that aren't artsy people, you know, or they.
[48:18] They're like, they just couldn't relate to her experiences. Yeah. And I'm like, that's totally fine, you know, but it's like, it doesn't mean that any of us is less Asian, you know, or less valuable or valid.
[48:30] Our experience are less valid, you know?
[48:32] Valerie: Absolutely. I have a confession. I. I really did not like everything everywhere all at once.
[48:38] Ellie Yang Camp: Oh, interesting.
[48:40] Valerie: Yeah, I was.
[48:41] Ellie Yang Camp: What did you like about it?
[48:46] Valerie: I think it was just so cr. It was a little crass and.
[48:50] Ellie Yang Camp: Okay. Yeah, I can understand that.
[48:51] Valerie: You know, that's just not me. And I think I just was a little bit put off of it. And I think also, like, I like to rebuild. When I see everyone kind of jumping on board and being like, I loved it and all that, I'm like, well, I did it, so.
[49:06] Yeah, right, Right.
[49:07] Ellie Yang Camp: Which is fine. Like, there should be. We should be free. But I think the frustration is that I think we as an Asian American community need to be doing more work on ourselves to make it okay for us to disagree.
[49:22] Valerie: Yeah.
[49:22] Ellie Yang Camp: You know, especially on something like a movie.
[49:24] Valerie: Yeah.
[49:25] Ellie Yang Camp: Right. It's like, it's. We're not talking about, like, political policies that are gonna, like, harm us physically. Right. But it's like, like, people are allowed to, like, not like, something, you know, And I think.
[49:36] I think when we feel too threatened, you know, then, you know, I mean, actually being.
[49:44] Seeing more of the behind the scenes now, like, having to, like, publish this book, it's like. I mean, I can also understand right there is frustration for. From Asian American creators, where it's like you spend so much time trying to push against these very white gatekeepery industries just to get your work out there.
[50:03] Right. And then people. Asian American. And you're hoping people will support it, and then Asian Americans almost feel too much freedom to criticize it. And you're like, no, we need people.
[50:14] We need it to be successful. You know, so it's like you're. It's like you're. What is it? You're managing all these conflicting things. But I think what is helpful is for us to all get a better sense of where each other is coming from.
[50:27] Valerie: Yeah.
[50:27] Ellie Yang Camp: So it's like, even if I don't. If I didn't like a movie, I can still respect and understand how hard it was to get made. Yeah. The. The amount of work.
[50:37] Right.
[50:38] How much intention and everything that they were trying to put, I could still respect it. And so I don't have to like, automatically come out and be like, well, they should have done this, this and this and this and this.
[50:46] Right. It's like I can communicate that in other ways through different avenues to certain, like. And be like, more mindful of the audience of what I'm saying. You know, I think.
[50:56] I think it's just like, more care. Maybe it's more care.
[50:59] Valerie: I also think that everyone has the right to create the art that they want because they're holding space for themselves.
[51:03] Ellie Yang Camp: Right.
[51:03] Valerie: And they get to.
[51:05] They get to deliver the message in the way that they want to. I totally respect that. Like, I don't care if I don't like the movie, you know, if that's the one that they wanted to make and that's cool.
[51:15] Right. And so I think that's really important because at the end of the day, like, you have to be really sure of your own work.
[51:21] Ellie Yang Camp: Yes.
[51:22] Valerie: This is the change that you want to bring to the world.
[51:24] Ellie Yang Camp: Right.
[51:24] Valerie: So.
[51:25] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think just, you know, I mean, you're a creator, I'm a creator, I guess. You know, but it's just like just us supporting each other. Right. And it doesn't have to look the same.
[51:34] I think, you know, it's really easy to feel insecure, you know, and then like, what's. At least for me when I get. When I get insecure or actually, usually, usually it comes out as, like, I start to realize I'm having competitive, jealous feelings.
[51:49] And I'm like, why am I feeling so bad? And I'm like, oh, it's because it's my own Insecurity. So it's like, okay, like, don't be that person. Right? It's like, they are not my enemy.
[51:59] They are not my competition. It's like, how can we support each other? And then if I. If I pivot and that's the type of work that I'm pressing into, then it's like, yeah, I've made a new friend, I've made a new co conspirator, and now we're working together.
[52:12] But I do think there are some. There are so many ways that we are groomed to be, like, we are each other's competition. Like, there's only space for the special agents in the room.
[52:23] Right. It has to look a certain way and all that kind of stuff. And I think the more we push against those and say, like, no, we're not going to do that, and no, I'm really going to invest in what it means to behave as a community, to support each other.
[52:38] It just creates so much more power, honestly. It's, like, so empowering. Yes.
[52:45] Valerie: All right, I'm going to give you two avenues, and I want you to choose one.
[52:50] Ellie Yang Camp: So one that popped up for me.
[52:52] Valerie: Was like, how does intergenerational trauma and the experiences of our parents, grandparents, et cetera, inform the struggles of Asian Americans? And the second one is a quote that you had, actually, when we were.
[53:07] When you were talking about politics in the talk that I attended, and you were talking about discussing politics with children, you said something along the lines of, I leave the morality out of it.
[53:16] Ellie Yang Camp: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[53:18] Valerie: And I want to dig into that because I think that that's really interesting, and a lot of times that's counterintuitive.
[53:24] Ellie Yang Camp: Let's do the second one, because I haven't had a chance to talk too much about that one. So I grew up. I grew up going to a Taiwanese church. So, I mean, I still identify as a Christian, but I think the way I was raised was.
[53:38] I don't even want to say the way I was raised, but the way.
[53:42] The way of thinking that I learned or inherited or manifested for, like, I think for, like, maybe throughout my 20s, it probably started in high school, you know, but like, and 20s and maybe even early 30s where it was this very, like, moralized, like, this is the right thing to do.
[54:01] This is the wrong thing to do. Right.
[54:04] Which could be anything from, like, you know, being racist to, like, you know, having sex to, you know, drugs and alcohol, like, anything, Right. Any sort of behavior where it's like, if you do those things, it means you are Doing something wrong, you are sinning, which means you are wrong as a person, you are sinful, and then, you know, you don't want to go to hell.
[54:26] Hell kind of stuff like that. So it was very moralized. Right? Yeah.
[54:30] And I think something that I have actually really had to unlearn over the past five to 10 years is, first of all, like, kind of be a little bit apologetic about.
[54:43] Like, I'm really sorry if you interacted with me during those years and I made you feel judged, because I was probably very judgy and just being and owning that and be like, yeah, I probably was.
[54:54] Like, I was trying to be a good person, but the ways people taught me to be a good person were sometimes extremely judgmental.
[55:01] And I think now, I think the question is in terms of raising children right, where it's like, you want them to be good people.
[55:10] Right. I think that's what it is. We want them to be good people, but at the same time, we know there are certain behaviors that could cause them harm that have been communicated to us as moral choices.
[55:24] Right. You know, like, I don't know, like, the book is about racism, so let's talk about race.
[55:32] So it's like, you know, I think especially, like, right now in society, like, especially in progressive spaces, it's like the shorthand. I've started using the word shorthand in the sense of, like, if you voted for Trump, that is a shorthand for saying that you are a bad person.
[55:51] And if you didn't vote for Trump, that is shorthand to say that you are a good person and you understand and that you are not a racist. Where it's like, when we actually take time to unlock some of that, it's like, that may not be true at all, actually.
[56:04] Like, I would say, if that's where we're drawing the line, either you voted for Trump or you didn't vote for Trump. Like, you will find a lot of different reasons on both sides.
[56:14] Yeah, right. And people on both sides are racist, you know?
[56:20] Valerie: Yes.
[56:21] Ellie Yang Camp: And so, like, I think. I think the original question was about, like, this moralizing.
[56:26] Valerie: Yeah.
[56:27] Ellie Yang Camp: Or I. I think I've. I'm trying to step into, like, a way of being where it's like, okay, this person did something I disagree with.
[56:39] In a previous life, I would have mentally jumped to the conclusion that what they did was wrong.
[56:46] But just because we are in disagreement does not necessarily. One person is right and one person is wrong. That one. One choice was the morally good choice and one was a morally bad choice.
[56:57] And like, I've. I had to learn to really. And I'm still learning to kind of unpack those things apart from each other. And so, like, if there is difference and there is disagreement, it's like, can I learn where they're coming from?
[57:13] Right. Can I understand the context of the decision or the opinion that they have?
[57:19] And then if I can understand what it's like to be in their shoes a little bit more, I can understand why they would have come to this conclusion.
[57:28] I still might disagree, but at the, at the very least, I'm able to see them as a person because I think when I was moralizing too much, it's like, oh, that's wrong.
[57:40] You're a wrong person. Like, that very quickly falls into this path of like dehumanizing other people. Yeah. You know, like, it's like there are these objects for us to judge.
[57:52] You know, all of a sudden they're stupid. You know, they don't know what they're doing yet. I am so superior. Right. I know when they don't. And I think, you know, I think now in my, my adult life, in my 40s, like, I think I often think back to like, you know, probably like my early 20s.
[58:12] I think if I had. What am I? I'm like 44. 44 year old Ellie interacted with like, what 21 year old Ellie.
[58:20] 21 year old Ellie would have thought I was like a complete heathen. Like, what's wrong with you? Have you no standards? I can understand where 21 year old Ellie was coming from.
[58:31] So a lot of it is also still having compassion on myself. Like, oh, man. Like that's what I was in. Like, like it made sense to me. That's how it made sense to me back then.
[58:40] But I grew and I learned and, you know, I evolved and I change. And so it's like even being able to have compassion on my former self or a younger version of myself is still.
[58:53] It's like exercising that compassion, empathy, muscle.
[58:56] Because like, if you can do that, you can do that for other people as well.
[59:00] Valerie: Yeah.
[59:01] Ellie Yang Camp: You know, but I. Yeah, so it's like, so like, sorry, like with talking to children, I really try to not reduce it to these. Like, this is good, this is bad.
[59:10] I, I think the way I think about it more is like, is like, is this just a shorthand? Like a quick shorthand? Like, even like growing up, if you grow up in the church, a lot of times people be like, oh, are they a Christian or not?
[59:21] Because if you're a Christian, that's shorthand for you're a good person, and if you're not, that shorthand for you're a bad person. Which is totally not true either, because there are some really terrible Christians out there.
[59:32] Right. And there are truly amazing people that would not identify as Christian or might be of other faiths or not. Not religious at all. Right. But it's like when we have these kind of shorthands that we kind of make these moral choices, we moralize.
[59:46] Like, it. It very quickly leads to, like, division and a closed offness. And I think, you know, right now in our country, there's just like, so much of that. Right.
[59:55] And I think we really need to be doing the work of trying to untangle things more, because otherwise it's just. It's. I mean. I mean, it's getting worse, right?
[01:00:03] Valerie: Yeah, it is.
[01:00:04] Ellie Yang Camp: Right. So, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:07] Valerie: I. So I had a similar story to you in that, like, I remember in 2016, I was livid. I remember being so angry. I remember, like, posting on Facebook, like, this is asinine.
[01:00:21] I remember all of that. And then eight years later, I had to. I've had to do some work because I've realized having that and having everyone have that attitude has not gotten this anywhere.
[01:00:36] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah, yeah.
[01:00:37] Valerie: And I would love to see for things to turn around, but I think for that to happen, we do need to be more compassionate towards people that are different.
[01:00:48] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[01:00:49] Valerie: Even when they're causing us or like, you know, they're causing the system to cause us harm. Right. Like, I think.
[01:00:56] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think something that. An analogy that I came upon, it's. It's from a book called Sacred Wounds by Teresa Matthias. I think on the book it might be a different name, but she, like, relates it to being, like, on a shuttle bus.
[01:01:14] So it's like, as opposed to thinking of people as, like, just like these static, fully formed people, it's like you either are this or that. It's like this idea that we're all on this healing journey.
[01:01:24] Right. So a lot of us learning and unlearning these, like, old destructive ways of being is us trying to heal. Right. And learn. But she's like, it's like a shuttle bus.
[01:01:34] So it's like the shuttle bus comes around regularly, and it's ready to take whoever's ready for the shuttle bus. So it's like, if you get there at like 8am, you're ready to go to the destination before.
[01:01:47] And so you take your shuttle bus. Right. But it doesn't mean that there aren't people that are going to come later at like 10:00am, 12:00pm, 5:00pm and they're going to finally be ready for the shuttle bus to take you to your destination.
[01:02:01] They're just not ready at the same time you are. And so just because they're not ready yet, they take longer to get ready for the shuttle bus. It doesn't mean that you need to wait for them to take the shuttle bus there.
[01:02:13] You can keep going. But at the same time, it's like, just because they didn't get on the shuttle bus at the same time as you did doesn't mean that they were wrong.
[01:02:22] Right. It's like everybody, it's like it's just a shuttle bus. And so I think I loved that analogy because I was just like, I just, I think it helped me to have so much more compassion on other people and be like, yeah, people move at different paces.
[01:02:35] I think, you know, sometimes we can get a little self inflated, be like, well, I know this now. How come you don't know it? Well, it's like, well, I didn't always know this either.
[01:02:43] Right. And so I think about all the people that had to deal with me when I was younger. They're probably that like Ellie, you know, but they were also patient with me.
[01:02:53] Right. It's like they didn't totally just like rule me out. And eventually I got on the shuttle bus after them, you know, and so I think when we think about it in those ways, it helps.
[01:03:04] Yeah. You know, I think it, it helps. And I think anything that helps us to have more compassion for each other is a good thing. So.
[01:03:13] Valerie: Absolutely.
[01:03:14] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[01:03:14] Valerie: And I love that that is shuttle bus analogy and just thinking about the fact that every single human being is on their own journey.
[01:03:23] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah.
[01:03:23] Valerie: So. Yeah.
[01:03:25] Okay. Well, I'd like to leave off with the final question of what's next for you. What do you see yourself doing in the future and where can we find your book?
[01:03:35] Ellie Yang Camp: The first question, or let's start with the last questions. It's easier. You can find my book. You can find my book at most places so you can order it online, usually from your local independent bookstore if you request it.
[01:03:48] If they don't have it on the shelf, I would love it if you asked them to put it on the shelf. But you can usually like order it through them.
[01:03:54] You can get it, you can, you can probably find it in most places a book is sold. But louder than the lies in terms of what is next for me, I am still kind of feeling that out.
[01:04:06] So, like, even writing this book and publishing it was not really like a master plan that I had and so I'm, I'm kind of, I'm just, I'm along for the ride to see where it goes.
[01:04:18] I've loved, now that the book is out, being able to get into great conversations with people like this one and just about like what it means and how to encourage our community, communities and bring healing.
[01:04:29] And so I am, I'm doing some exploring, you know, just, just to see like well what else is out there. And I love being able to connect with other Asian Americans doing like awesome work and you know, like, how can we support each other, how can we organize all those kinds of things?
[01:04:47] So I don't, I don't really know what's next for me, but I am, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm out here. So if like people wanna, if people want to get in contact with me and be like, hey, are you interested?
[01:04:58] Like I'm, I'm totally open to ideas.
[01:05:01] Valerie: Amazing. I will make sure to leave your links in the show notes. If you'd like to get in touch with Ellie, you can definitely do so pick up her book Louder Than Lies.
[01:05:10] Asian American Identity, Solidarity and self love. Thank you everyone and we will see you next time.
[01:05:17] Ellie Yang Camp: Yeah, it was great. Thanks for having me. Valerie, have you ever felt like you're.
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