[00:00] Valerie: Rise, renew, reconnect. Welcome to the final episode of season one of from the Ashes, a podcast where every episode ignites hope and healing. Today, I interviewed my college dance crewmate, Joey Kim. Growing up in a violent, repressive environment, Joey found sanctuary in martial arts and street dance, using them to heal PTSD and anxiety through artistic physical expression. Joey's ways of articulating his experiences and navigating his trauma are profoundly introspective, and I am honored that we are able to share these insights with you. Enjoy this heartfelt conversation with Joey Kim.
All right, hey, everyone. Welcome back to from the ashes. Today, I have my good friend Joe Kim with me. We go way back to our college days at Northwestern University, where we were both part of a hip hop dance crew called Refresh Dance Crew. And I have seen Joe just tremendously transform throughout the years, and he has witnessed my transformation as well. And it's just really cool to be here with someone who understands me deeply. So thank you, Joe, for being here today.
[01:22] Joey: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[01:24] Valerie: Yeah, I want to start off kind of by telling the audience our story with refresh dance crew. This is kind of an origin story with so much that has led both of our lives, because we've both turned this, like, hip hop in this dance into a healing modality. Right? So, yeah, let's start with that.
[01:46] Joey: Yeah, yeah, sure. So, Fuego.
[01:51] Valerie: Fuego.
[01:53] Joey: And, yeah, I remember, you know, I think how I found refresh was. It was my freshman year. It was like, I think sometime in, like, it was really early. It was, like, first quarter, and I stepped into, I think it was spec gym. And, yeah, you guys were just going off. You know, Matt was doing his thing, breaking. I think some of you guys were also doing choreo. And I say you saw you definitely hitting those sharp angles like you always do. And I was like, wow, this is the real deal. This is, like, what I saw, you know, as a kid, like, on music videos on tv, and I was trying to imitate in the basement where nobody was watching, but, like, you guys were, like, accessible. So I, like. I, like, just went up to you guys, talked to you guys, and you guys were just very inviting, and that. That's pretty much my story. I mean.
[02:46] Valerie: Yeah, well, I want to give people a bit of background and before your time even, because I think you came in when I was a junior or something like that, right?
[02:53] Joey: Yeah, yeah, junior, senior. So you definitely were earlier on.
[02:57] Valerie: Yeah, it's really funny, because when I got into Northwestern, I didn't know how to break dance. And I was terrible at hip hop, and my goal was to. To learn how to bring. And it was just so weird because Matt and I happened to live in the same dorm, I think even on the same floor of freshman year. And he just so happened to want to also start a club of people who want to learn how to break. And so it was so, like, ground up grassroots because there were other hip hop groups on campus, but I wasn't good enough for that. And it was really just kind of this curiosity that I had. And that's really what started all of this refresh stuff, which has turned into a huge campus wide phenomenon at this rate, has supported now generations of dancers. So, like, we had really humble beginnings, and I think because of that, we were very humble to begin with and very hungry to learn. And it was a very creative space. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it just opened up a lot organically, I think, because it was that space for people to come in and process themselves in a different way. Looking back at it now, at least.
[04:26] Joey: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I definitely felt, like, the grassroots nature of it. I think that's what really gravitated towards me. Cause I could identify with you guys. You guys were fellow Asian Americans and also fellow nerds. We're all at Northwestern here, but also just, like, you know, there's also this side of us that, like, had, like, I don't know, maybe some, like, empowerment issues, maybe. I mean, at least on my end, that's what I felt. And, you know, hip hop, like, what better way to empower yourself than through hip hop?
[04:59] Valerie: Yeah.
[05:00] Joey: You know? So, yeah, it was just. It's almost like I, like, unconsciously, like, manifested you guys and you unconsciously manifested refresh. Like. Like, bye. You know, somehow finding a way to meet with Matt and the rest of the rest of the crew. So to create refresh. So.
[05:19] Valerie: Yeah, yeah. So let's jump into that story of those empowerment issues. And I've talked about this on the podcast, so I'll just kind of briefly go over, and then I'll invite you to tell your story.
[05:32] Joey: Sure.
[05:33] Valerie: But I was always a very quiet kid growing up. I didn't have that many friends up until maybe junior high school, with English being my second language and just not being able to relate to people from different cultures or the main culture, even. And dance has always been an outlet. I started with Chinese folk dance, and when I got into middle school was when I switched schools. And all of a sudden, there were all these Asian American kids doing hip hop, and breaking. And they were so cool. I didn't fit in with them, but, like, it was just really nice because they did accept me to an extent, and they did introduce to me a lot of Asian pop music. Hip hop was huge back in the day. Cause it was nineties, two thousands, and, yeah, like, and I've always been very drawn to that physical expression of emotion, of thoughts and whatnot. So when I helped create refresh and I was going through all of this, I was realizing, like, yeah, I can have my voice, but because I was so young in that process, that voice is very explosive. And so that really, it was a very volatile time, I think college, because of that, I was, like, discovering my own voice and trying to process that. So, yeah, giving you that context and. And how I got into and how I process it, I invite you also to tell your story of.
[07:03] Joey: Yeah, sure, yeah, I can definitely relate. I don't know how deep we want to go, but probably start a little higher level for now, but, yeah, yeah, I mean, I grew up in, like, a very kind of rigid Korean, like, family, like, conservative Christian Korean family, very violent family, unfortunately. You know, there was a lot of just violent abuse going on, and that violence and that kind of repression, it just led to a lot of bottled up, like, anger and emotions. And it's like. It's like, the emotions that I was taught to express, like, kind of unconsciously by the people around me was like, either, like, nothing or just, like, anger and rage, you know, the whole k rage thing and. Yeah, like, it's, you know, I was, like, a dork. I was pretty good in school and all that stuff. You know, I worked hard, studied hard. I mean, such was the expectations of my family, but I was, like, kind of a Jekyll and Hyde because I also, like, I hung out with a lot of, like, troublemakers, like, troubled kids. Like, somehow I just, like, really identified with them, I think, because you know how I grew up, but, yeah, like, you know, like, I was. I got into, like, hanging out with, like, some, like, you know, ghetto wannabe kids because I was kind of a thug wannabe. I mean, I guess all thugs are kind of wanna be's, but, you know, it's just like, yeah, we just were, like, surrogate fathers for each other in some sense. Surrogate, like brothers. And, like, coming with that was also a big interest in hip hop. You know, I remember seeing, like, hip hop dance, like, on in music videos and be like, wow, that looks. That looks powerful. That looks empowering, like, something that looks very expressive and it looks like I can. I can identify with the rage, with the power, all of it, and. But, you know, there was just nobody who was really, like, dancing like that, like, where I grew up. So, I mean, I remember trying, like, to learn a few different things. Like, I think I learned how to do, like, a Nike freeze, like, on my own, which I was pretty happy about. But, yeah, I guess, from. From that environment. Like, there was always, like, an embedded interest in hip hop. There was a lot of anger and also a lot of violence, you know, which led to, I guess, a certain gap and a certain. Certain sense of, like, numbness to. A certain sense of numbness to, like, the subtleties that the finer, the softer things in life, like, the connection, the sense of trust. This is a sense of safety. And hip hop seemed to, I guess, give me kind of an outlet or a sense of identity with that. And then I came to northwestern, and so, yeah, that's kind of the high level gist of things. So, yeah, no.
[09:50] Valerie: Okay. Do you mind if I ask a question?
[09:53] Joey: Yeah.
[09:54] Valerie: Based off of my. My previous observations of you during college.
[09:58] Joey: Yeah.
[09:59] Valerie: So I remember when you first came in, you were working on, like, windmills and, like, variations of windmill. Right. Really hard stuff. And you would, like, go hard at it. Oh, sometimes to the point of injury.
[10:16] Joey: Yeah.
[10:17] Valerie: And I. You know, I think in the back of my mind, I've always thought of that. That image of you, and, like, just like, the. It was like you were trying to spin out some kind of pain. What was going on when you were doing those windmills? Like, what were you processing?
[10:38] Joey: Yeah, it's very interesting that you bring that up, because it's. I've recognized it as a habit, like, in the past. So, basically, when it comes to very violent, traumatic experiences, you sort of unconsciously become numb to feeling feelings in your body. And particularly, I was pretty numb to pain and just numb to my body in general because of just some of the crazy shit that I went through. And, yeah, it's working myself really hard to the point that it hurt was, like, actually a way for me to, like, finally feel something in my body, and, like, feeling something is better than feeling nothing. I mean. I mean, that's how my psyche was at the time. And, yeah, I would go to the point of injury. I remember, like, torment. Meniscus was, like, walking on campus in crutches, and I was still, like, coming to practice, like, trying to work on freezes and even trying to do a little footwork, which is really dumb. But it was just, like, I don't know. Like, it was definitely not. Like, it was. In some sense, it was. It was not healing. It was. It was bad for me, but in some sense, it kind of was because it was allowing me to, like, feel a sensation in my body. Oh, this is pain. You know, pain. Like, I haven't really felt pain in a long time because I, you know, felt so much pain in. Throughout my childhood. And eventually, like, you kind of become numb to pain. And so, like, oh, this is familiar. And it's, like, reactivating. It was, like, reactivating my body. And then, in a weird way, by injuring myself a bunch of times, I finally started to become more sensitive to my pain. And so it kind of backdoored my way into my healing and becoming more embodied and, uh, yeah, it's also, like, the pain. It was just like me. Like, a lot of the anger and rage. Just, like, putting it all on dance floor.
[12:43] Valerie: Yeah.
[12:43] Joey: You know, and. Yeah, like. Like, the anger that went into my body, it went in with pain.
[12:51] Valerie: Yeah.
[12:52] Joey: And sometimes it has to come out with pain, too. You know, I feel like that's kind of the first part of the journey.
[12:59] Valerie: Yeah.
[13:00] Joey: So.
[13:01] Valerie: So we'll skip around a little bit and we'll fill in the gaps as we go, but, you know, fast forward years and years later. Cause we've. I know you've lived in New York. We've met up in New York a few times, and then, like, in LA. So I. When you were in LA, because I've seen so many clips of you online with, like, doing the calisthenics and all of that, and I feel like, you know, when I started seeing you doing that, I was like, well, that's different. There was a shift in him, and that's when you really started talking very publicly about what you've been through. Um, so can you tell us a little a story about how that shift started for you? And was there an any point where there was, like, a ground zero or a realization that helped you through that shift?
[13:48] Joey: I think it was gradual. So I got diagnosed with PTSD. I mean, I'm kind of hopping around here, too. I got diagnosed with PTSD, like, my mid twenties. And, you know, I was functional with PTSD. Cause I still had a great career making good money, all that stuff. But there was something inside that, like, was just very, very, like, wrong and, you know, hyper vigilance, like flashbacks and, you know, terrifying nightmares and just, like, you know, a sense that, like, there's always something I gotta watch out for. And I was just recognizing that inside me and I didn't know, and I, you know, like, I was actually, like, completely unaware that I even had a bad childhood. Like, I remember something that I would say a lot that I actually talked a lot with. With my. With my friends, and I've talked with some of my old high school buddies, like, where I would be like, oh, yeah, you know, my dad beat me with a baseball bet, but, you know, I deserved it. And I kind of just, like, brushed it off and I would, like, laugh it off. It's interesting, like, looking back, like, it's, like, almost like the subconscious part of my psyche was, like, trying to process it by talking to people about it and helping people validate it. And it's like my inner child wanted to be heard. And, yeah, just a profound discovery that I have PTSD and some shit did happen to me. It was just such a profound shift in my life. And then I think the first part of the healing journey, the first part of, like, the, you know, it's realization, like, realizing that I have this thing, this pain. The second part is, like, feeling all that pain, and it was, like, just feeling a lot of, like, bad shit. And, you know, they call it the dark night of the soul. And then I eventually kind of, like, overcame that pain, and I started to feel safe in my body. You know, the nightmares went away just, like, I. I felt, like, just grounded and whole. And for me, it was such a profound level of safety and peace. You don't know what you don't know. And it's like, if you've been living feeling like you're unsafe your whole life, you think that's normal. You think being unsafe is actually safe. And so all of a sudden, I felt safe. And that safety, it emanated to feeling safe enough to talk about my experiences, to feel safe enough to, like, talk publicly. You know, I wasn't. I was pretty shy. Like, I wasn't, you know, really talkative during our college days. Now I felt safe enough to just, like, express myself. Like, my feelings matter. And when your feelings matter, you know, you talk about your feelings kind of the natural progression in life.
[16:33] Valerie: Yeah, because so you've been a coach. You founded Bliss hop healing.
[16:38] Joey: Yeah.
[16:39] Valerie: So, obviously, hip hop and dance have been really instrumental for you in that healing journey. How did that facilitate that process for you?
[16:52] Joey: How did my experiences facilitate that process?
[16:55] Valerie: How did the hip hop and the dance help you help facilitate your healing?
[16:59] Joey: Yeah, yeah, sure. Hip hop for me was special just because. So dance, like, moving my body, I was always a very hyper energetic kid, you know, like, I just had so much energy and, you know, I. I think we naturally, like, want to express ourselves, right? And the expression that came naturally for me as a kid because I just had a lot of. It was just anger. Anger and just rage. And for me, like, yeah, like, I'm not. Look, hip hop isn't all anger and rage, but it's one of. Hip hop is one of those beautiful things where it allows you to express your anger and rage, whereas there's certain other modalities that don't really give you that same level of outlet. And hip hop, at least for me, at least how I interpreted hip hop, was it allowed you to express all parts of yourself, like, both anger and bliss, both love and hatred, and there's no shame behind expressing those things. You know, all things are valid to express. And for me, like, that, that was special because, you know, there's other. Other dance like modalities and, you know, like, the stereotypical la healing dance, it's very, like, flowery. Like, hey, I'm pretending to be shakti. Like, oh, you know, like, using very, like, feminine movements and that. Like, look, growing up, how I grew up and what I went through, that would have never penetrated me ever. And it. And it still doesn't really penetrate me. I mean, look, I definitely have, like, learned to soften my movements and learn to embrace other. Other types of movement. But the journey was, like, first, like, addressing, like, what is actually there, not, like, bypassing that and pretending to be, like, bliss when. When really what's inside me is anger and pain.
[18:54] Valerie: Yeah.
[18:55] Joey: And my feeling is that hip hop, like, kind of gives you a way of not spiritually bypassing the true essence of your experience. For me. For me personally, you know?
[19:10] Valerie: Yeah, I mean, I would agree, too. Hip hop has been very unique in history, and that, like, it is very combative. It's designed to be that way, and it comes from a place where people had to be. Right? Like, it's. And I really do love that this is an art form that really has embraced reality and all parts of reality. I'm not all about the love and light either. I've just seen too much. And can you dig a little bit into that? What's, like, the importance of authenticity and what's the problem, you know, with just being flowery and flowy?
[19:51] Joey: Right? Yeah. The importance of authenticity. Well, it's on many different levels. Right? Like, for. For me to trust enough, trust anybody enough to build a connection with them, there needs to be authenticity, you know, because trust is built on authenticity. Relationships are built off of authenticity. Everything is filled off of authenticity, you know, and that's paramount. And I guess. Sorry, what was the second part of your question?
[20:23] Valerie: Yeah. So where have you seen the. I guess my question is, where have you witnessed the lack of authenticity and the impact of that?
[20:30] Joey: Yeah. Yeah. And where have I seen the lack of authenticity and the impact of that? It's everywhere, right? It's. There isn't isolated place. So I think the truth is, like, we're all inauthentic to some degree to just based off of the fact that we all have pain, we all have traumas, we all have what we've been through. But the place that really, I guess, grinded my gear sometimes was the spiritual community or even the healing community, like mental health communities. I mean, look, mental health and everything and wellness, it's all been on the rise. But I think that's really where the gap in authenticity is, where it shouldn't be, particularly in LA. I live in Santa Monica. A lot of it's very influencer and very yoga and kombucha and Pilates on the weekend, and people go to meditation retreats and everything very regularly. But what I feel oftentimes is people use spiritual terms. People use love and, like, terms like love and light as a way of. As a form of avoidance of what they're actually experiencing deep inside them, you know? So we all naturally want to feel like love and light. And the truth is, like, we are like, in our deepest forms, love and light. That's what I believe. But what's in the way of that is a lot of darkness. And until you acknowledge that darkness, until you fully acknowledge that pain, you don't get to actually experience your love and light fully. That's what I feel, you know, like love, light, all these great spiritual terms. It's an experience, right? It's like this. The word honey is not the same thing as honey, right? Honey has a taste. Honey has color, a texture. You know, it feels a certain way, it looks a certain way. And you don't really understand it until you actually taste it. You know, like you put it in your mouth, you look at it, you know, you feel it in your hands, you know, it's a feeling. I mean, I could describe it. I could say, oh, it's really sweet, it's golden, it's this, it's that. But until you actually see it, feel it and taste it, you're not really going to understand what honey actually is. It's just a bunch of words. And words are not the actual experience, you know, and that's difference between thinking and feeling. You know, thinking is a lot of words. A lot of it's that voice in our head, and feeling is experience, and then, you know, healing is in the feeling. Nothing more, nothing left.
[23:34] Valerie: It reminds me of. Do you watch Star Wars?
[23:38] Joey: I have. Okay.
[23:40] Valerie: The recent iterations of Star wars had. Because it used to be like, jedi light, you know, and then the dark side. And I think we have been taught to look at light side and dark side as these, like, opposing forces. But in the recent shows, it really goes into that theme of, like, if you don't acknowledge the dark, it will come and eat you up. And, you know, and there's, like, love within also in the dark, which I find to be very refreshing because I feel like we can't really live in the illusion that there's a good side and evil side anymore.
[24:22] Joey: Yeah, well, I feel that the dark became the dark because we didn't acknowledge it, and that's why it became our shadow. You know, it's like my anger, my pain, I didn't acknowledge it, so it became something inside me that ultimately culminated into PTSD. And then the part of my healing journey was then acknowledging that PTSD. So shining light on the darkness, so what you suppress always becomes shadow, you know?
[24:58] Valerie: Yeah. What led up to the diagnosis of PTSD? Were you noticing things that were happening in your body or, like, you know, what were. Because, like, you had to go to a doctor to get that diagnosis, right?
[25:13] Joey: Yeah, there was a lot of things. I mean, I was experiencing a lot of health issues, and I was in a pretty stressful finance career. I used to be an investment banker and would work pretty late, so a lot of that was unhealthy lifestyle, for sure. But I was in my mid twenties, and I had fibromyalgia. I gained, like, 30, 40 pounds. I was, like, having, like, the onset of arthritis, like, symptoms.
[25:46] Valerie: Yeah.
[25:46] Joey: And, you know, it's interesting, like, I'm pretty athletic now, but it's like, I couldn't really do anything with my body. And, you know, people were different. Doctors were telling me, like, hey, like, you know, the only physical activity you can do is, like, really, like, you know, what grandmas do, like, you know, kind of like lightning yoga on the weekends or stuff like that. Very low impact stuff. And, yeah, you know, I was just experiencing a lot of, like, anger and, like, fear, like, irrational fear, just, like, I would be at work, and I was just, like, very sensitive to noises, like, kind of angry, and I would just, like, erupt and be like, what the fuck is that? Like? And everybody's like, what are you talking about? It's just somebody, like, dropped a shoe or something. Somebody dropped a feather, and it just would, like. I don't know. It's just like, the sensitivity to noises was just intense, and then I was having, like, these, like, dreams and these nightmares and these just, like, very volatile relationships. And, you know, my belief is that when it comes to, like, our healing journey, like, the very first step is like, you know, we all point the finger in other things, like, oh, like, it's. It's because that person dropped that little feather that made that light noise then. You know what I mean? Oh, it's because that person did this. Oh, it's because, you know, you always. You point. You point the finger elsewhere, but you keep experiencing pain in your life and keep experiencing disappointment until eventually you have to start looking inside yourself, you know?
[27:20] Valerie: Yeah.
[27:20] Joey: And I was like, okay, there's something. There's something wrong. You know, it's clearly not everything. And then. Yeah, like, that. That's when I went to see, you know, a mental health professional and was like, yeah, sounds like PTSD. So that's how it started.
[27:41] Valerie: So I want to ask you this because I think you would understand. There comes a point in the time of someone's healing journey where we realize that we are responsible. That doesn't mean that other people have not done us wrong, but we are responsible for our own lives. What does that mean to you?
[28:01] Joey: Yeah, this means this, like, victimhood is not the same thing as healing. You know, victimhood is often misconstrued with healing. Right. And, you know, we're in a volatile age. I might be a little controversial here, but, like, you know, there's a strong sense of identity behind being a victim. But my feeling is that that's the first stage of healing, you know? Like, all of a sudden, you start to experience all these things that you've suppressed deep inside yourself. So you feel like you're a victim, you know? But then oftentimes what I feel is, like, people on their healing journey, like, we get stuck on that first stage of, like, I'm a victim. I'm the one who's being hurt by everybody else. And then next stage is, like you said, starting to take responsibility, you know? And people tend to be afraid of the word responsibility. You know, we have images, like, of, like, you know, David Goggins and some, like, very, like, macho, like, masculine stuff. And that's not what I mean. Like, responsibility is, you know, you can be responsible and yet compassionate. I call it compassionate responsibility. And it's like taking. Taking responsibility is basically acknowledging that, hey, you have been hurt, you have been through pain, you know, at a point in your life when you were a child, when I was a child, you know, when I wasn't able to, you know, be fully responsible for my emotions, my actions. And, you know, your consciousness as a child is naturally focused more on absorption. Right. You absorb what's around you because it's a survival mechanism. As a child, you absorb, but as an adult, you have this thing called choice, and that's the evolution of consciousness. Consciousness. With choice, you're aware of things, and the very virtue of being aware allows you to choose how to respond. And that insight allows you to start taking responsibility for your actions, for your behaviors, your whatever, and ultimately even your emotions, your feelings, your sense of identity, your sense of being. Who am I as Joey? You know? But that only comes from, that insight really only comes from actually acknowledging your pain. And so that's how I see responsibility. It's basically learning to realize how powerful you actually are, learning to realize that you're in control of your entire experience to the extent of how conscious and aware you are.
[30:57] Valerie: That's amazing. That's very well said. Thank you.
[31:02] Joey: Absolutely.
[31:03] Valerie: Because we've both been such explosive people. I'll share on my end. It's over ten years now. I think it's 15 years since I graduated northwestern. And even up until maybe last year or the year before, this emotional reaction to things would come up very frequently. And I remember when I first started dating my husband, I would get social anxiety attacks, panic attacks, because I couldn't go into certain spaces and not shrink down. And I started to process this concept of being responsible. And I think the more that I allow myself to process it and see that, like, I have more choice than I realized. I can choose everything that has really allowed me to be more. To have more equanimity in situations where I used to explode. Yeah. But it's an ongoing process. I don't think, like, I don't think we're ever going to be 100%, but, like, I've noticed for myself, at least in the past couple of years, it's significantly shifted.
[32:34] Joey: That's wonderful. And I've actually witnessed that, too. Like, you're definitely, like. You're, like, a lot, like, more calm. Yeah. And it's a testament to you, to your work and your maturity.
[32:50] Valerie: So my next. Thank you. Thank you for that. And acknowledged. I feel seen. Thanks.
[32:55] Joey: Absolutely.
[32:57] Valerie: How do you hold space for people who are still in the very beginning of that journey.
[33:03] Joey: You know, that's a very interesting question. I think the most important thing is, like, first and foremost is being a very good listener. Oftentimes when people go into the space, the business of holding space for people like healing, you know, everybody and their mother in LA says that they're a healer and their coach and all this stuff. Guilty. But oftentimes it's our subconscious, it has a certain ego attachment, an ego identity behind, oh, I'm a healer. I help people. But when it comes to holding space and healing, your ego has to not be there. You're just a channel for the person you have to hold. You have to be a good listener. You have to feel that person and really just reflect what they're saying. I think that's the most fundamental aspect. The key is feeling, feeling the person and feeling listening. All that happens in silence, you know? So I'd say that's the biggest part of holding space, and the biggest part of holding space even before that, like, to do all that stuff, you need to first, like, fully hold space for yourself. And I think sometimes people in LA and just people in the healing world in general are too quick to want to heal and help other people. And I think sometimes it's very important to look at what is that thing inside you that. That wants to. That wants to, like, hold space for other people? Sure, I'm sure there's a part of you that really genuinely wants to help people, but there's also a part of you that probably has a certain ego attachment behind that. And also there's probably, look, I mean, I'll be fully transparent for myself. You know, I definitely had that. I went through that myself. You know, there was a certain ego attachment behind being maybe like helping people, holding space for people. And there's also just like, you know, sometimes wanting to help people, it comes from a codependent energy, you know, where it's like, codependence is like you are loving somebody because it fills the gap in your own heart, you know, like, it validates your own existence. And when you're helping somebody, because when you're doing something that is selfishly motivated in the sense that it means self esteem for you because you without it don't have self esteem. And that subtly impacts the ability to hold space, the ability to truly be there for somebody. And it goes in a very, very deep, like, intracellular, like, energetic level. Yeah, that. You know, look, I mean, I think. I don't think it's anything to be shamed, you know, like your desire to help people. I think it's actually something to be celebrated and loved, but I think it's also, it's something to be not taken very lightly and to be deeply examined within yourself right now. Like, you know, we have healers that are like shaman and all this stuff, which is great. And they're kind of the alternative to therapists and therapists. Look, I mean, a lot of people kind of maybe shit on the whole mental health healthcare industry in general because of, you know, how much money people are making and all this stuff. But yeah, you know, like, it's true, like, mental health, a lot of the issues with mental health and therapy is like, you know, it's very in your head and it's not kind of like in your body. And, but the biggest issue is sometimes a lot of therapists, they learned how to hold space and heal from a textbook, and they haven't had the direct experience of healing themselves. And that's a big issue with the world of mental health. But that's also an even bigger issue in the world of shamanism, yoga, meditation, Buddhist retreats, Reiki healing, you know, the whole nine yards. So.
[37:16] Valerie: Well, I mean, I think that's why you get so many corruption cases of people abusing their.
[37:21] Joey: Absolutely. You know, like a great example, great example of that is like, you know, in the world of breaking, breakdancing, it's like, if you haven't learned how to do a head spin, why the fuck are you teaching people how to do a head spin? Learning, like doing a head spin, it's a felt experience. It's, it's like you're getting used to the, the feeling in your, your head, like the nerves in your endings in your head to a certain level of torque. You can't be like, hey, like you make a, you put 20 pounds of pressure here and like, you know, you go at this 90 degree angle and you, you put 20 pounds of force on your leg, which makes you spin on your, you know, no, no, no, that's, that's in your head. It's a feeling. Ooh.
[38:03] Valerie: Oh. I want to go on a tangent.
[38:06] Joey: Go ahead.
[38:07] Valerie: I'm going to go on a little tangent. Even though I love the discussion we're having now with the dance stuff, so. Man. All right, so when we, when we first started refresh, we were really into, like, the shapes and stuff. And here's the thing, and I want to say this very gently, because it can be very controversial, is that, you know, as Asian American kids, we're not really taught to feel rhythm and to, like, groove. So it was very comfortable for us to do the shapes and not think about this body thing. The embodiment of music, the embodiment of rhythm, it was very much like in the head, not the heart.
[38:50] Joey: Yeah, absolutely.
[38:52] Valerie: Yeah. And it's not like we were causing us to be always in our head, but it just reflected, I think, just how we were all brought up because we were mostly Asian American kids and the type of dance that we created was all that we knew.
[39:09] Joey: Oh, yeah.
[39:10] Valerie: And it was just really cool to start exploring different people's dances because once I actually learned how to groove and get rhythm, my whole wave changed.
[39:23] Joey: Yeah, yeah. We were very mechanical. I remember 5678, you know, that's not a perfect 90 degrees. And. But here's the thing. Like, I also think, like, it's one of those things where, like, like, I think. I think sometimes you just have to go through that. Sometimes you have to, like, kind of, like, let your head be the head until your head's like, okay, I'm done being the head now. Now go into your heart. Like, at least for me, that was like the evolution of my dance turning, where it was just all headland, and then my head was like, okay, thank you for acknowledging me now. Now I can let you also acknowledge a heart. And that's when the growth really happened, you know?
[40:05] Valerie: Yeah. So, yeah, I wonder if it's any different now. I mean, because, like, they're so good now, you know, they're so good at dancing now.
[40:12] Joey: Oh, yeah. You can feel, I mean, I'm sure you can relate to this, but you can feel, though, like somebody can be, like, a great technical dancer and there's just a certain, like, subtle, energetic feeling that's, like, not there.
[40:26] Valerie: Right.
[40:27] Joey: And I don't know, like, I think the dance community in LA, in the big cities and also in different college campuses, it's, it's beautiful. It's. But, like, I think there's, there's. There's always ways to go. Go a bit deeper, I think. Yeah, for, for me, the commercial side of dance, like, it kind of doesn't. First of all, I don't know, I never really competed in all that. I mean, everybody says that I should compete, and for me, it's just, I've had enough competition in my life.
[40:59] Valerie: Yeah.
[41:00] Joey: And I want to feel into some other things and, yeah, I think that that's an avenue that you can kind of go to, but I think there's always pros and cons.
[41:12] Valerie: Yeah, for sure. And it's like everybody's on their own growth journey, you know?
[41:16] Joey: Yeah.
[41:17] Valerie: So it's always tempting to try to have your hand in other people's growth journeys, but they also have to be ready and, like, have their own experience, so.
[41:27] Joey: Yeah.
[41:28] Valerie: Yeah, absolutely. What modalities do you maintain right now? Or what practice do practices do you maintain right now to. To facilitate your ongoing healing and growth?
[41:41] Joey: Yeah, so, so I still do therapy here and there. And, you know, therapy is helpful, especially if you. If you find the right therapist. And for, for me, like, what's been a very deep part of my journey is, is like meditation and not like, not like, like the wacky meditations where you, you visualize and manifest and all these flashy meditations, just a very simple kind of buddhist style meditation where maybe you just sit, sit up straight, close your eyes and focus on your breath. And the very act of closing my eyes, like, it's like blocking off one sense that's completely dedicated to external. And so by closing my eyes, it immediately just goes internal. And by anchoring on something very simple like the breath or maybe like a sensation in your heart, it allows, at least for me, like, a lot of subconscious things show up, like, in the form of, like, maybe feeling itch, maybe feeling, like, restless while I'm meditating, maybe feeling, like, tired or scared. But it's all like, things that were kind of suppressed deeply in my subconscious. But, you know, just living life, running around, being busy. You're just not aware of it. And for me, like, you know, meditation has, it's gotten very, very deep in that sense where, you know, I can kind of go in, feel into what's there and, you know, like, almost like little by little bit, like, dissolve the ego and also get to that part of my consciousness which has choice, you know, choice to create space between stimulus and reaction. Right? Like, oh, I feel an itch. I feel all this anger. I want to, like, fucking get out and like, just, like, start looking at my phone, like, no, let's pause and let's just sit with that. And you'll just notice it and observe that. And I just, like a lot of the insights I have with my. With who I am as a person. Like, you know, like, it's. I'm not my dissentation in my body. I'm this thing called awareness. And this thing called awareness has different aspects to it. Like, your awareness can get very, very, like, focused on a small point to as expansive as, like something like the whole universe. And, you know, it has a certain quality of, like, you know, calmness versus, like, restlessness. And your awareness also has this beautiful quality of choice. And so that insight has been very helpful. Dancing has been very helpful. Of course, for all the reasons we've mentioned, yoga has been very helpful. And one of the biggest areas of my journey has been using plant medicine. Everything from psilocybin mushrooms to ayahuasca to ketamine, LSD, so on and so forth. So it's all been very, very helpful. And for me, like, plant medicine has been kind of the deepest, most efficient way of getting through, particularly with, like, the PTSD symptoms.
[44:47] Valerie: Yeah.
[44:48] Joey: So it basically helped me eradicate, like, the majority of the PTSD I was experiencing in my early days. So, yeah.
[44:57] Valerie: Do you mind if I ask a little bit about that? Because I feel like even we live in LA, so everybody's all about the plant medicines and everything, but, like, it's not mainstream yet, you know, Tim Ferriss is very much advocating for it. There are different scientists who are researching it in institutions and there is some buzz going around, but for most people, it is still very much not understood. Can you describe why that experience was so significant for you of using the plant medicines?
[45:33] Joey: Yeah. So plant medicine, particularly psilocybin, has been very significant for me. You know, psilocybin, it's the part of the mushroom. It's basically a mushroom that grows naturally in the earth. And it's connected to. Probably not explained this very well, but it's connected to, like, mycelium. And mycelium helps, like, facilitate communication between different trees, different plants, so on and so forth. And I say. I say all this. To say this, it's like you're. You're kind of like, this is what I feel when you're tapping into these plants. Like, you're tapping into their wisdom and their communication and their. Their senses. And, you know, as humans sometimes we're a bit cocky. We think that we have, like, all the senses that are out there, but, you know, you know, there's senses that we don't have. Like, bloodhounds are able to smell like ten times what we're able to smell and. And feel things. So. So basically, for me, like, plant medicines, it gives me that. It gave me, like, an extra sense because, you know, being so desensitized with my human senses due to a lot of the traumas, a lot of. A lot of the violence I experienced, it's like I can keep going at trying to feel into those senses that are already really blocked. Whereas plant medicine was like, oh, well, you can try this other sense, this other way of sensing the world and your body in the universe. And for me, that's basically why plant medicine helped me go deeper. It's also, I think, particularly for things like psilocybin, it's great for doing shadow work. And I think shadow work is probably the most not understood part of healing, even though I would say it's probably the most important thing when it comes to healing, because your shadow is basically to explain shadow work in a nutshell. It's basically like, hey, going through traumas, going through life, you learn to suppress certain feelings and certain things, and what you suppress just kind of gets stored into your body, and it becomes your shadow, you know, shadow, because you're not shining your light of awareness on it. And shadow work, it's often terrifying. It can be scary because all the things that you're scared to experience, you know, it shows up all the things that you're scared to acknowledge about who you are as a person, what's happened to you, and take responsibility for. It's scary, it's not flashy. It's oftentimes very, like, very unpleasant, you know, and especially in certain plant medicines, like, especially ayahuasca. And, like, oftentimes psilocybin, like, you purge, you know, as you're shining light on that shadow. But it's, like, a crucial aspect of your healing. And that's why the plants, like, you don't understand light until you understand darkness. You know, like, it's almost like, by definition, like, light has a sense of understanding that's relative to darkness. And so, yeah, like, for me. For me, that's what plant medicine has done.
[48:49] Valerie: So I want to dig a little bit into that. So, with the shadow work, you know, and the, you know, how we create essentially layers of defensive mechanisms based off of limiting beliefs and traumatic experiences and whatnot, I'm creating this hand motion of an onion or, like, a something where there's layers of this in your own work. Just, like, give me one example of one major layer of limiting belief you have shed in the recent years, and how. And what. What were the behaviors that shifted? And how has that changed your trajectory?
[49:28] Joey: Yeah, so one of the shadow areas is it's an unconscious belief that I'm not safe, that, you know, there's always danger that needs to be managed. Throughout my twenties and earlier on, like, I would always have, like, you know, I'd be able to talk with you, interact with you, but there was always, like, at least 30, 40% of my consciousness was focused on what could happen or preparing for something in that could happen in the future. So I was never, like, fully present, right. And it's like, when you're not fully present, you don't see the opportunities that arise in the present moment. And so a big part of the shadow work, like, this particular aspect of the work, was feeling into the lack of safety, like, where it comes from, feeling the texture of it, where I feel it in my body. Like, for. So, for instance, I would feel a lot of, like, tension, like, right here. And I realized, because this is where, you know, when I would get, you know, beaten by my pops, like, he was right handed, and this was, like, the hand that would, like, go up and block, you know? Or I'd feel, like, tension in my neck, or I feel like this, like, weird, like, tension, like, right here in the back of my head. Because, you know, sometimes my dad would do this thing where hit the back of my head, and it's like, I don't know. I would always feel like that would be. I think unconsciously as a kid, I would be like, that would be. It's the hits that you don't see. And that would be what would kill me eventually or something. I don't know. You feel into all these things when you're a kid. The plant medicine helped me observe that and feel into that lack of safety in the body. And eventually, as it shed, as I. As you kind of breathe space, as I kind of breathe space into it, it would eventually, like, it started to fade. And just. Just by allowing myself to feel into the uncomfortable tension that I'm experiencing in the body, it started to go away. It started to just, like, flow, like, energetically flow out of my body. And all of a sudden, like, it was weird. It's like, for the first time, I remember, like, being in that circle, and, like, I just started crying, like, oh, my God, I. I'm home. I'm home. I just started, like, bawling my eyes out. And it's like, for the first time, I feel, like, fully present, which I've never been able to feel that before. And all of a sudden, I feel, like, my heart opening up. There's these subtle sensations in my heart, and I'm recognizing that, hey, when I'm meeting somebody or when I'm talking to somebody, that blockage in my heart isn't there anymore. It's open, it's raw, and it's, like, inviting, as opposed to, like, no, don't come here. And, yeah, it's changed my behaviors in the sense that I'm a lot softer. I smile a lot more at people I don't know. I'm the weird guy in LA that says hi to you when I walk in the street because nobody says hi to you in LA, and that, like, smiles at people I don't know. It's like, I, like, love people. Like, I don't. I don't. I'm not afraid of people. There's nothing. It's like, it's interesting. It's like I didn't let go of, like, the pain in the sense that, like, I'm ignoring that pain is possible, but I'm allowing myself to acknowledge that all things are possible. And so, like, it's like there's this just deep level of faith inside me that, like, I can just be fully present. And if pain happens, I can fucking handle it. Like, I've been through it. And if love happens, that. That's great, too. That just adds to. Adds. Adds to the beautiful bliss that I've been experiencing.
[53:28] Valerie: Amazing.
[53:30] Joey: Yeah.
[53:32] Valerie: All right, well, final question.
[53:34] Joey: Sure.
[53:35] Valerie: Before we wrap up today, what role has forgiveness played in your healing?
[53:41] Joey: Oh, this is a good one. These are great questions, by the way. Yeah, forgiveness has been beautiful. It's. Well, it's really like, you know, like the classic trope, like, you forgive people for yourself, not for them. You know, that's somewhat true, but it's also, I think that the more. The more true statement would be you're forgiving people because you realize that there's no separation between you and that person. And, you know, it's like, my dad, he was. He was. He was one of my primary, you know, abusers as a kid. And it's like, I hate the word abuser because it's like, automatically it's like, oh, he's the devil. He's the bad guy. But it's like, no, like, I would have been him. I was him, you know? Like, if I didn't have the tools that I have. He was just as much of an innocent boy that was, like, going through some very difficult things in Korea, especially back when Korea was like a poor third world, like, war torn country. And it's like, it. Forgiveness, it helps. It, like, frees up space. And the beauty behind it is, like, I'm able to connect with my father and love my father, love the man who he is and be proud of him and almost be able to hold space for him and help heal him. I'll never say I'm his healer because that's saying that, hey, it's my ego. No, I'm able to hold space for him, and it's been wonderful because I see this generational, seismic, like, impact that's just expanding in our family and. Yeah, forgiveness. Forgiveness, it only comes from really facing the deepest parts of yourself. You know the word forgiveness? Like, oh, yeah, I forgive you. Those are hollow words. But forgiveness isn't experience. It's a feeling. And you can't bypass feeling into that. You know? If I say I forgive you without actually feeling it, I'm transmitting the vibration of inauthenticity and pain into the world.
[55:58] Valerie: Yeah.
[56:00] Joey: But if I forgive you and actually feel the full love, gratitude, and lightness that comes from forgiveness, then I'm transmitting true love and light into the world.
[56:13] Valerie: Yay. Thank you. Beautiful way to end this.
[56:17] Joey: Yeah.
[56:18] Valerie: Yeah. Joe, it's been such a blessing, I would say, to have you along with me in this journey and more conversations to come, for sure.
[56:32] Joey: Yeah. And it's been a blessing to have you as well. Thank you so much for having me.
[56:36] Valerie: All right, thanks, everyone, for tuning in, and we'll catch you later. Hey, everyone. I just want to take a moment to thank all of you for tuning in and supporting from the ashes during this first season. I have loved every moment of producing this show, and I truly hope that these stories have inspired you to dig deeper into your own personal growth journeys. It's been an honor to share these conversations with you, and I can't wait to bring you more in November when we kick off season two. Until then, stay awesome and keep rising.
