[00:00] Valerie: Rise, renew, reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where every story ignites hope and healing. All right, welcome back, everyone. This is Valerie and we are with Doctor Erika Shaw. She is a board certified, licensed acupuncturist and doctor of acupuncture. Acupuncture in Chinese medicine and one of the doctors at Urban Salt acupuncture in Long Beach, California. So welcome, Erika.
[00:40] Erika: Thank you for having me.
[00:41] Valerie: Thank you for being here. We are going to get into a lot today, and I would love for you to introduce yourself to the audience and let us know something that's important to you and maybe a fun fact.
[00:54] Erika: Okay, perfect. Well, the one that always gets my patience is that I'm a twin, younger by 20 minutes. So I like to joke that I kicked her out to guinea pig experiment with the world first. But she is my favorite person in the world, sharing that place with my husband. Shout out to Michael. So, yeah, that's kind of my fun fact. I'm from Oregon originally. Used to live on a farm, so grew up a lot with cattle, chickens, ponies. But yeah, now I love California. I moved here in 2019 and I never planned to leave. It's honestly so amazing. No shade to Portland, but also, well.
[01:34] Valerie: I'm glad you like it here. And I read on your bio that you are a fan of Chinese and K dramas, so.
[01:44] Erika: We could go on for days about this. Truly so good.
[01:49] Valerie: I, you know, I have to admit. So, like, I watch some. When I get into it, I get into it. I get stuck in there, but I don't spend too much time on there. I would still like to know, what's your favorite Chinese drama?
[02:00] Erika: Oh, man, they're all so good. But there's a special place for the first one, right, which is like, who rules the world? So good. It's very fighting heavy, and the choreography is always incredible, but then you have a lot of the politics and then Princess Prince mixed with their different sect leaders when it comes to martial arts, it's just truly, it's so beautiful. I love it. I love the love scenes. I love the fighting. It just covers everything. It's wonderful. Highly recommend.
[02:35] Valerie: And what got you into that?
[02:37] Erika: Oh, gosh. Oh, it all started with BTS. So, like, I. I just went from Korean to Chinese and, like, Mandarin and all that. But, yeah, massive love for BTS. Then I started wanting to, you know, know what they're actually saying in the songs. So I started learning Korean, and I have to say I feel like Mandarin's a little easier for me. There's just something about it. I know you never hear that, but. So then I, after, like, 500 days on Duolingo of learning, and that's probably the first mistake because, honestly, Duolingo, not the best teacher. I switched over to Mandarin, and I feel like I'm picking that up a lot faster. And then, you know, the goal is to be able to walk to my kitchen and not have to, like, pause the show and be able to, like, still understand what they're saying.
[03:21] Valerie: Amazing. All right, so now that we know that you're a big Chinese and korean pop fan and drama fan, does that tie in at all to your work as a Chinese medicine doctor?
[03:35] Erika: Funny enough, right? The acupuncture came first, but I like to say it gives me a little more street cred, but, yeah. So the goal is to someday communicate in Mandarin to patients who might not be able to speak English as well. We had to learn, you know, the Chinese pinyin in school for the herbs. And so, you know, we have, like, little medical terminology, I suppose, when it comes to that, but not so much the actual conversational piece. So slowly but surely someday.
[04:04] Valerie: Yeah. Cool. So I always like to ask people first. They're from the ashes story. So this could be a time in your life where something challenged your beliefs or about who you are, where you made a, like, a decision to start over, or where something fundamentally or dramatically changed your life, so.
[04:25] Erika: Oh, man. Okay, well, let's tie it into acupuncture, because it's my whole career now, but in middle school, we were all made to take this career placement quiz and, you know, has to do with your belief system, what you want to be paid, you know, like, the purpose you want to have in life kind of thing. And so for me, it ended up being alphabetically listed, and acupuncturist was what showed up. And so I was like, you know what? Yeah, I'm going to be an acupuncturist. And, you know, very happy go lucky with all of that. And it wasn't until, like, later in high school that I started looking at tuition that I was like, there's no way that this is going to be possible for me. You know, like, at the time, it was one hundred k to go to school for it, and, like, full transparency, I'm in 200k debt out of school for it. So, yeah. And so even thinking then, when it was one hundred k, I was like, there's no way I'm just gonna, I'm gonna be a personal trainer or something that is still health and wellness but not nearly, you know, not gonna put me back that much. And so that was kind of the path I was on. And it wasn't until junior year in high school I was playing soccer. I kind of got bulldozed by this girl. I was a defender, and, you know, I got up. It didn't really hurt, but it was the next day at practice that I was running, and I moved the wrong way, and my rib just located, and that was kind of it for me. I couldn't move. It was out for four to 5 hours. A chiropractor had to come on scene, and then he was able to pop it back in, but on the way home, it popped right back out. Went to the ER, and they're like, you know what? It's a rib. Ribs are ribs. Here's some pain meds. I was like, this is unacceptable. This is like, really? That's the best answer you have for me? And so, yeah, basically, the next day, I had to miss school because I was in debilitating pain. Like, my parents even gave up their bed for me because it was the nice tip. Repeat it. It was the only thing I could sleep in. And my mom is an English school teacher, so when she got back from teaching her students, she was like, well, how are you feeling? I was like, I still. Horrible. Still can't move. And someone else was feeding me food because I couldn't lift my arm because it's all connected. And she's like, you know what? Eff it used to want to be an acupuncturist. Let's go try one out. Tracy knows this great one. So basically, she drove me out. I was in, like, a horrible mood, and it was just the first impression. You never want to leave with someone, but when you're in pain, you're in pain, and it doesn't always bring out the best side of you. And I kid you not. Not even 30 minutes after having the needles in, it's like it never happened. It was truly magical. And she didn't even touch my rib. It was all like, elbows down, knees down, and it was gone. And, you know, not everyone has a miracle case like that, but especially, it's more common when you're young. But, yeah, it was incredible. And from that day forward, started apprenticing with her, and I changed my mind. Like, even if I have to be in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, it'd be incredible just to be able to give back and do this for one person. And that's kind of my origin story. That was my moment.
[07:28] Valerie: So this happened when you were a teenager, right?
[07:30] Erika: It did, yeah.
[07:31] Valerie: Okay. And so did you go directly from high school to acupuncture college?
[07:37] Erika: No. So you actually have to have the credit equivalent of a bachelor's in order to attend. So because I knew what I wanted to be from a young age, I. Well, I did a year of college in high school, and then I went to community college, got my associates in a year, and then I went to massage school and got the credit equivalent through massage certification. Then I applied to the master's program and then got my master's and doctorate at the same time.
[08:07] Valerie: Okay.
[08:07] Erika: Yeah. Like, you gotta cheat the system somehow. You don't need to have a bachelor's in French studies or what have you. Yeah, you just might as well go straight there.
[08:17] Valerie: Beautiful. So now that you do have the doctors in acupuncture, what is your take on what happened?
[08:26] Erika: Oh, you mean with my room?
[08:28] Valerie: Yep. Okay.
[08:29] Erika: Yeah, I mean, a lot of times, and orthopedics is my specialty, ironically, now that we're here. So what I think happened was the muscles got really tight in order to kind of surround that area when I hit the impact on the ground. And so when the muscles get super tight, they can pull ribs or, you know, your vertebra out of place. That's why a lot of people have to go to chiropractors. And that's why I always recommend chiropractors who do muscle work, because the adjustment isn't really going to stay if you don't do the muscle work. If they're coming out of place because the muscles are tight, then it's not going to do anything just to, like, put it back into place only for the muscles to pull it back out. So basically, muscles went into spasm, and that part of my back ripped my rib out of the facet joint. And then because it was out for so long, the cartilage was damaged from the expanding of my rib cage every time I breathe. So it wasn't going to, like, just stay there and go back into place without slipping right back out. So, yeah, basically a lot of, like, muscle tightness mixed with needing to just give it time and probably bind my ribs, which, looking back, I wish I would have done that instead of just not have anything wrapped around them.
[09:44] Valerie: Yeah. And I want to know how your perception of yourself has changed from that experience.
[09:56] Erika: Well, it's nice finally having the tools. That's the first thing. And honestly, the biggest thing I learned from it was not to really judge my patients when they come in, in a **** poor mood because I even did that with my own dad. He suffered from a ton of back pain. And I remember just thinking, look, there's no reason for you to take this out on the family. You have a bad back. You're going to have to just deal with that. And then after that experience, I was like, oh, no. Pain really does change someone. So I never try to, like, judge my patients when they come in with a poor attitude, especially when they're skeptical about acupuncture working. You know, like, this is truly their, like, last ditch effort, and they're here just trying it because, like, for them, they probably think it's very boo woo. And they're like, you know what? I've tried everything. It's time to try this. Of course they're going to be in a bad attitude, in a bad mood. And so I just try to kind of just take it for what it is and make them feel better when they leave.
[10:52] Valerie: So how long have you been in practice so far?
[10:55] Erika: Only a year.
[10:57] Valerie: Okay, so you're pretty new to it. Have you had any really, like, eye opening experiences with patient?
[11:05] Erika: I mean, like, constantly. It's hard to think of just one. One of the biggest ones was like, probably my algae rheumatica. That's a bit like autoimmune and kind of presents as fibromyalgia, but it has a lot added, I suppose, like, very. It attacks the shoulders a lot and the joints, which, you know, is kind of all. They're all very similar when you have a flare. But that was the case that I really, like, learned to lean into herbs a bit more. I'm very much prone to just really relying on my needling and loving the acupuncture and motor point side of things. But that was a big one where I kind of saw the power of herbs.
[11:47] Valerie: So since I'm an ayurvedic practitioner, we can go into this a little bit deeper, if you would like. Yeah. And also I'd love to do a little bit of a side by side comparison of Ayurveda's approach and Chinese medicine approach. I don't know too much about Chinese medicine. We did, like, an introductory course in my massage therapy training, and that's about the extent of it. From what I understand, though, a lot of the philosophical tenets of the two sciences somewhat have parallels, and a lot of the approaches, too, are multifaceted. In the United States, acupuncture is the main modality that's practiced in TCM. As far as I know. With herbs and everything else being secondary. Right. So my first question to you is, how were you taught the system of medicine, and how does that differ from how you actually practice?
[12:50] Erika: So I practice a lot orthopedically, which is not even necessarily TCM, nor is it just like, another type of acupuncture. It's very, like, motor point based, like, you gotta know, like, the muscle insertion origin, and then, like, the motor point of it, like, which is usually in the body of the muscle. Right. So I was taught with TCM, and this is true for a lot of things, especially when I don't do orthostuff, but everything, right? So, like, let's say headaches, for instance. So in Chinese medicine, we don't really treat that diagnosis. We treat the pattern. So if it's sharp, for instance, that's an excess of something, you know, so is it blood stagnation? What is causing the sharpness? Right. And then, or, for instance, like, what time of the month is this person getting their headache, for instance, like, does it hurt more right before the period, or does it hurt after the period? If it's dull and it hurts after the period, it's a blood deficiency headache. Whereas if it hurts leading up to the period, that's like a blood stagnation. There's some sort of, like, qi stagnation excess as well. So you kind of have to look more at the pattern. There's no protocol for like, oh, someone has headaches. Give me the protocol for that. It's more like, okay, well, where is it? If it's the forehead, that's a Yang Ming headache. So we're going to treat, like, the large intestine and the stomach. If it's in the back, like, attention headache usually starts from the back and goes forward. Then we treat the UB, and that's like using more of the channel theory behind it. So, like, in Chinese medicine, we don't ever really treat the diagnosis. We treat the pattern because multiple people will have knee pain, but it's not always the same reason. And there's different points to be used for different reasons that the pain is there. And then, so for orthopedics, sometimes there's, you know, with the knee pain, I can treat with what we were just talking about. Like, okay, if it's bee syndrome, I need to get rid of the dampness a lot of times, or the coldness that is trapped in the joint. But sometimes, you know, like, this person just blew out their knee in jiu jitsu. And so I'm like, okay, well, like, your MCl has a bit of a moment. So now, like, let's needle around the MCL and the points that surround it. And that might not always be super pattern based. That's more orthopedic. But I still like to use certain points. For instance, like chiclef points. Those are great for pain along the channel. So I might do my typical, like, knee protocol, which I know is ironic. So, like, you shouldn't have protocols, but when it's ortho, it's a little bit different. And then add chiclef points for, like, pain along the channel for where they're feeling it most. Does that make sense?
[15:29] Valerie: Yes, it does. There are very similar approaches in ayurveda. So technically, you're always looking at the pattern. That's right. But I think throughout the thousands of years that it's been around, they've developed certain common patterns. And so that has become somewhat of the diagnosis for our part. We'll see. Oh, you have this diagnosis. However, there's like, you know, different subtypes that can happen depending on which forces are at play or which are dominant in that person or in that condition. And so, yeah, there isn't really, like, coming in with a certain condition. You're just like, that's the treatment that you're going to get. If that happens, you're probably seeing someone who's probably not doing what they should be doing.
[16:18] Erika: Right.
[16:19] Valerie: In terms of being thorough with the patient and, like, you know what their life is about. Because at the end of the day, I think it's important to know, like, who's sitting in front of you. Yeah. For treatment. Okay. So then that comes to, like, there's also all these other components outside of the needles that are part of Chinese medicine. Right. And that are less talked about and less, less practice in the practice, I think probably because of insurance for a large part, but also just, like, what is popular. Yeah, yeah. So, like, I know that, you know, we as ayurvedic practitioners, we often like herbs is a very huge thing, but then diet and lifestyle are also, like, primary in our treatment plans. So how, you know, with your approach, do you find yourself incorporating any of that at all? And how big of a part does that play in your approach?
[17:15] Erika: Yeah, no, it's definitely an important one, and one I'd like to utilize more. So when it comes to diet, I'll admit that I'm not, like, the expert on it, so I would love to be able to refer people to you. There are, like, certain things that are obvious. So if someone's like, let's say they have ***** crow diarrhea, which is a really fancy way of saying they have to, like, have an explosive diarrhea moment at, like, five in the morning, or, like, when they first wake up and it's usually watery and there's usually undigested food in it. So what that tells us is generally there's, like, a spleen and kidney yang deficiency. So how can we help our spleen? And which is kind of, like, known for kind of cooking it and, like, the metabolism, being able to put our chi into ways that we can better use it, I suppose, is, like, the layman's way of saying that. So, for instance, let's not have, like, salads or raw foods or something that would be hard for the spleen to be able to, like, transform and transport. And so, for instance, I tell people, like, okay, like, if you have salads and, like, that, try to, like, add hot soup afterwards. So you're, like, helping it out, or kind of, like, how you already see sushi where you, like, pair it with the ginger. That's a very smart way to deal with it, because if you're just only having, like, raw, cold foods, that's going to keep the food being undigested because your spleen is being taxed and you don't have enough splen chi to really help it out. So that's kind of, like, an example of, like, just easy dietary changes. Or, for instance, someone has, like, stomach fire and, you know, they have, like, really bad breath and they have heartburn, and we're like, okay, it's. You got to stop. The greasy food or the hot food, like, the buffalo wings need to stop. So kind of, like, very generic, almost like, common sense kind of things I can help with. But when it comes to, like, you know, an actual solid dietary plan, I would 100% defer to you and someone who, like, has a certification and something like that, because that's just. That's not my expertise.
[19:28] Valerie: Were you trained in it at all in school?
[19:31] Erika: We did have one term, which, again, is hardly enough when it comes to something that generally takes people, like, a year or two to get certified in. And so I have a book of it of, like, for instance, black sesame seeds are great for the kidneys, like, things like that. And so it breaks it down, and it has a really substantial list. I'm trying to remember what it's called. I think it's, like, healing with whole foods or something like that, and it breaks it down. For instance, let's say you have yin deficiency. Look on page 26. And these are all the foods that you would want to supplement with in order to heal with food first before you even have to go to medication.
[20:17] Valerie: Okay, got it. So there are a few topics I want to cover today. So I want to get into the, what is it, the psycho emotional disorders that you treat, anxiety, stuff like that, autoimmune, especially. But before we touch upon that, in Chinese medicine, there are a lot of terms that are used that sound completely foreign to the normal person. You know, for example, dampness, wind chi, all of that. So for the listeners out there who have really never heard of TCM, can you just give, like, a very brief layman's overview of what those terms are or the important ones to know a.
[21:01] Erika: Lot of it, it's a completely different paradigm. And I was just having this conversation with the patient today, so it's, like, fresh in my mind. For instance, I was telling them, like, you have liver cheese stagnation, which in California, I'm like, who doesn't? We're very livery bunch. So they're like, well, so do I need to do a liver cleanse? I'm like, I mean, it probably wouldn't hurt, but no, like, that's not what I mean. Because the liver in Chinese medicine, it doesn't automatically transfer over to the liver in western medicine. It's almost kind of like the esoteric version. And like, some things do transfer over. You know, some things do make sense. But for instance, the spleen, how Chinese medicine views it, is almost more like the pancreas, I suppose so, yeah, like, we have qi, so let's start there. And that's kind of, I suppose you could say, like ATP. On a western standpoint, it's kind of like the energy that keeps things going in your body. You could also look at it as when there's an obstruction of that. Or, like, you start, you know, those people who need to go and exercise to feel better about themselves, they just feel like **** until they, like, go for a walk. That's someone who has, like, liver, cheese stagnation. They need to, like, move their body in order to feel better. And so liver is basically the general, the commander of Qi, the guy who is in charge of making sure that people are running, doing their thing. And so anytime there's some sort of mental emotional concern with patients, we always have to look at the liver first because they're kind of in charge of all free flowing chi and emotions. You know, there's different organs that correlate with certain emotions like lung is grief and so on and so forth. But we also have to look at the liver component as well. I'm trying to think of the other one. So, dampness, for instance, usually the key component of looking at dampness. Like, someone would think an overweight person. But that's not always the case. That's just an easiest, obvious going, like, oh, yeah, they have dampness. It doesn't correlate with phlegm or fat always. But on, for instance, like, the grandma who can tell when it's going to rain, she's got that pain in her joints. That's a damp kind of thing. Or, for instance, digestive issues as well. A lot of times that correlates with dampness. Even the one that I just talked about recently on an old post was brain fog. That can also be a sign of dampness, but more so hurting your shen or your mental wherewithal, I suppose. And so there's so many different things. It doesn't truly transfer over to the western way that we might like it to. It doesn't always correlate. There's even, like, blood deficiency, for instance, and that doesn't always correlate to anemia. More often than not 95% of the time. Well, but not always.
[24:04] Valerie: So when I started learning ayurvedic medicine, I learned a lot about myself because I was given this new paradigm of understanding my body and also understanding my mind, my emotions, and it really transformed the way that I look at my entire life. So, having gone through your Chinese medicine program and all that, do you find that you have also changed how you look at yourself? And if so, how?
[24:34] Erika: Yes, all the time. It's even, like, worked its way into my relationships. So, like, my husband will sigh and I'm like, ooh, liver chief stagnation. What's happening there? Because, you know, sign is, like, a way to kind of move the liberty. But then, you know, it's also given me a lot of grace. Like, I've put on some weight over the past year. I'm looking at it from, like, the dampness standpoint, too. Like, well, what is causing this? Like, where is this obstruction? It's just hard to look at life differently unless it's through that. You know, it has to be through that lens, because that's, like, what I know now. That's who I am. That's what I do. And I honestly, from the ortho standpoint, I'm constantly watching how people move, looking and assessing their gaits. I'm like, oof, that guy has a tight piriformis. He needs to have that released. So, yeah, I mean, I would definitely say it's a massive thing, looking at people's tongues. You know, those, like, that trend whenever people stick their tongue out, like, just constantly assessing. I wonder if that's something you do, too, just, like, looking at people's faces even. Because we also have Chinese face reading, and so that's definitely something I also consider.
[25:45] Valerie: Yeah. So the face reading is very popular on the Chinese medicine side, and I. I'm really intrigued by it, so. And we don't do it a lot in Ayurveda, we do, but it's not one of the modalities that we are, like, very formally taught.
[26:01] Erika: We actually don't formally learn it either. This was a book I read before I went to acupuncture school. And Lillian Bridges, she has since passed, but, like, she wrote it, and she's absolutely amazing. And that book is just incredible. But I can tell you, like, the things that I know and that do stand out. So, for instance, your face can be divided into, like, three separate levels. So, like, right above your eyebrows to your hairline, and then from, like, that, you know, glabella down to, like, your philtrum right above your lip and then from there down to your chin. And so it kind of separates how people go throughout the world and, like, what they think. I. And, like, how they view things. So one of the examples that was used, like, was a car salesman. So if you see someone who has, like, more of the, like, let's say a five head, if you will, which. No judgment. I'm definitely that person. They're more prone to, like, wisdom, whereas the eyes, more practicality, and then the mouth is more feeling. So you would approach these people differently if you're trying to sell them something. It was funny. She would mention that she has a brother who's in business, and he utilized face rating in order to, like, close deals. So let's say I'm trying to sell you a car. Like, if you have a larger portion in the forehead area, I'd be telling you more about the statistics behind why it's the best car and why you should leave with it today. Whereas if you have more between the eyebrows and the philtrum, which is, like, the part right above your lip, I would be like, let's say you're, you know, a soccer mom or you have a lot of kids, like, okay, the minivan. It's practical. This is going to get your kids from point a to point b. You know, who cares if they spill. It's not, you know, it's not like a Maserati or whatever. I don't really know cars that well, but you get my point. Whereas definitely, if you see someone with the phil. Chin down to the chin, like, with the larger feeling, this is might be someone who's like, having a midlife quest, you're like, oh, yeah, you want to feel young again. You're going to, like, be so cool. You're going to attract all, like, you know, potential partners in this car, that kind of thing. And so that's a way that people, I suppose, can utilize it. One of the ways that we as practitioners can look at it from more of a healthy standpoint is like, this is if you have like, lines from in the philtrum, right? This is more indicative, like, poor lungs. And you can often see this with smokers, with the pursing of the lips, and even people with, like, CoPD and whatnot. And then this is more, oh, I'm like pointing. People aren't gonna know what that means, but, okay, so, like the line that if you were to connect eye to eye over the bridge of your nose, that's more with, like, healthy food. So a lot of times, people who have that line across need to clean up their diet. Okay, so, I mean, it's pretty cool. I love it. I obviously am not doing it justice, so please go read her book. It's super neat.
[29:06] Valerie: Yeah, yeah. I would be really curious to see what my face says. Other than that, I probably look really tired.
[29:12] Erika: But, girl, you and me both. Same.
[29:19] Valerie: All right, so let's move on to your experience with treating psycho emotional disorders, autoimmune and all of that. This is actually a really huge topic and particular topic of interest in mine. Of mine, I went into ayurveda and continued to practice with a focus on helping people manage these particular concerns. And the reason why is because a lot of our suffering comes from the mental realm, especially these days where we are more emotionally aware and the symptoms of stress tend to present more in the emotional, I think. And also because, especially when I was studying ayurveda, what I was seeing is that in autoimmune disorders, it would often be an expression of an emotional or mental distress that presents in the body. So I want to hear your perspective on all of this and what you have seen in your practice.
[31:04] Erika: Yeah, well, so first and foremost, it's a huge deal to me, too, because my twin has two autoimmune disorders. And I think that's, like, one of the biggest reasons that everyone's like, well, why don't you? You're twins, right? And I look at our high school experiences, and they were relatively similar except how we perceived stressed. And so she perceived stress very differently, whereas I was kind of like, you know, what is this something I'm going to worry about on my deathbed? And if not, I'm not going to stress about it. And that's just truly changed my life. So I highly recommend, if you're ever stressing, you're like, will I be thinking about this with my last dying breath? And if not, don't worry about it. Whereas everything for her was like, she was just fighting for trying to get the best grade possible, which, again, is important, sure, but at the expense of her health. And, like, her started with, you know, anxiety, and then it started with vasovagal syncope, and she was, like, passing out in bathroom stalls and. But, yeah, like, it was. She interpreted stress very differently, even though we were living the same life to an extent. But hers also manifested, too, after, like, a severe Achilles injury that just would not heal. And so I think, you know, part of it, I'm like, okay, was it a from the Achilles mixed with everything else? Because that was the big difference between what she had happening compared to what I had happening. So. But it's interesting because my acupuncturist that I first started with, she said that, like, she pushed herself at or burnt the candle at both ends, I suppose, to the point where, like, she developed blood cancer. And so a lot of people will be like, okay, well, let's not blame. Like, maybe that was just going to come about no matter what. But I look at my twin and I'm like, well, we are truly identical. I have every genetic factor that she does. Like, we are identical twins. And so, like, I have the capability to also have an autoimmune disorder. And so I do think what you're saying with the stress, the mental illness, all that really does lead you down a certain road if it's not managed well or dealt with. And so, yeah, like, it's. We don't do enough in this culture, in this country to, like, take care of the mental illness issue. And, yeah, I just, I can't speak enough about that. Acupuncture is incredible for it. Exercise, what have you, anything that is your outlet, please, by all means. But a lot of it is stress management first.
[33:41] Valerie: Yeah, it definitely is. And it's just, you know, I think it is a hard thing for people to really grasp. So I'm going to first give a very brief explanation from an ayurvedic standpoint of how we look at autoimmune. And then I want after that, for you to kind of fill in the gap and tell me what you see or what you hear, rather, when I talk about this and see if there's anything in Chinese medicine that may also cover this topic, because these are ancient medicines, right? And so they might not have the exact language for what people are going through right now, especially with autoimmune. There was no word for autoimmune in Sanskrit, but there were certain things that we could see in terms of patterns, because ayurveda is really great at dealing with chronic issues, and autoimmune issues are chronic issues. So the way that Ayurveda sees things is that there's always going to be one, a digestive component. And that is often early stage, right, because, and now we know that gut health is very directly linked to mental health and emotional health and the nervous system. So the nervous system, the gut, and just the way that we process food, they're all connected. When we have a lot of stress, we're just instantly impacting our gut, and it's going to create some kind of digestive distress, you know, in the form of whether that be gas or acidity or slow digestion, slow metabolism, et cetera, depending on the energy that is dominant. And from there, if that stress is not addressed to, then it goes on to overflow into the rest of the body and cause more systemic issues. And then from there, if it's not addressed and the person hasn't realized that something is going on, then it starts to lodge itself. Those excess energies and diseased energies start to lodge themselves into weaker parts of the body, or parts of the body where that energy has affinity. And then eventually, then it becomes a full blown disease. That's one component. The other is that there is this notion of toxicity in the body, and toxicity is caused when food is digested poorly and creates like, quote unquote, metabolic waste, toxins that continue to be lodged in the system that can create a lot of dysfunction in the way that the body is running and it can lodge, that what we call ama, or toxins, lodges itself in the body to cause inflammation, et cetera. Then the final component of all of this is the notion of resilience and immunity, and the ability for the body to also recognize itself as friend, not foe. And when we have a lot of resilience, when we have this, we have something called ojas, which is kind of like our vital essence. It's a little different from chi. It's more of like the golden ooze that we see in our body that keeps us strong, that can be very depleted by, you know, burning the candle at both ends or emotional distress, anything that, that can compromise your immunity, compromise your ability to cope. So when that resilience wanes, then the body starts not to see itself as friend anymore, especially if you're depleted. And then you're, you also have toxins, like, circulating your system. Then, of course, it's like the body's thinking, oh, no, we gotta fight whatever's there. So it starts to fight itself. There's a lot more that can go into this, but that's kind of like the brief overview of how I have seen autoimmune from a very broad ayurvedic standpoint. So I just wanna hear your thoughts on that from the TCM perspective.
[38:03] Erika: Well, first of all, fascinating. Love to hear it. It sounds like ayurvedic is very similar to kind of like, the earth school of, you know, Chinese medicine, which isn't necessarily, like, the traditional sense. There's, like, different ways to practice all over, all over the world. And, like, the earth school of thought is that, like, the earth is at the center of everything. So if there's, like, an issue anywhere, look at the spleen and stomach. So that that totally does resonate with, like, a certain way that some acupuncturists do treat. And it's actually funny because Sjogren's is more often than not diagnosed in Chinese medicine with the pattern of stomach yin deficiency, whereas, like, there's not enough fluid, so, like, the salivary glands are no longer producing enough, the eyes are dry, like, everything. Like, Sjogren's is basically not having enough, like anything, like water, hydration, whatever. And it leaves person feeling like they're basically blinking sand. Usually you find it in six year old women, but sometimes, like my twin, you can find it in, like, you know, someone as early as 20. So that's unfortunate. So that totally corresponds with how you were viewing it or how, like, ayurvedic medicine does. And, you know, there is a certain component where I'm like, well, when did this really all start? Because it truly is chronic, like you were saying. And I can think back to my sister, for instance, and in high school, she 100% was spleen chi deficient. Is that the thing that maybe set it all off? And, like, it might not be a spleen qi deficiency by the time it became, you know, rheumatoid arthritis and Sjogren's, but it definitely was a massive component to, like, the unraveling, like you were saying. And so in certain autoimmune, we don't necessarily always look at it from like an earth or spleen and stomach standpoint. Sometimes, more often than not, we look at it due to its chronic aspect as being more of a yin deficiency or like a gin and blood deficiency, generally of like, liver and kidneys. And then there could be components of dampness with that as well. But who's to say that it didn't start with the spleen?
[40:19] Valerie: Mm hmm, mm hmm. Yeah. And how, based on what you have seen so far in your clinic, how does the mental component relate to the physical component of health?
[40:34] Erika: Oh, man, it's so. It's so hard to say because, like, it really does affect everyone differently based on their perspective and outlook of it. Some people view this as like a life sentence that, like, their life will never be the same again, which they're not necessarily wrong, but that outlook is not going to help them heal either. And then some people look at it as like, oh, yeah, I'm only a four out of ten today. Like, I'm kicking ***. And so, like, the perspective shift, it's hard when you're in perpetual pain or your energy levels are taint to where they used to be. But I do see that, like, the mental aspect, I can't even give you a straight answer because it truly is dependent on the patient and how they're like, taking the L's. You know, some people just really struggle with it, and other people are more glass half full or glass half full. I'm not even sure what I said. I think I said something else, but, yeah, so the outlook is massive. A lot of times these with something that is autoimmune goes into remission, but it can always come back. And so we generally tell our patients, you know, like, we can probably get you down to a monthly maintenance, but this is something that, like, you will have to continue to get treatment for, and a lot of people don't love that. Answer. But then the people who have had it for, like, over five years are generally more understanding. They're like, oh, yeah. As long as, like, I can go to work and as long as I can take my kids to soccer practice and be able to do that and live a life, even if I'm not at 100%, I'll do whatever it takes. So there has to be, like, some sort of acceptance that's been reached, I think, for people to be able to get the most out of their healing when people are still, like, fighting it or have kind of succumbed to it, that's where I see the biggest issue and the biggest block to their healing.
[42:31] Valerie: Yeah. Do you ever have people come in who you feel like have already given up? And if so, how do you, like, what do you tell them? And have you ever seen anyone turn around?
[42:46] Erika: I have to say, I haven't necessarily had this in my own patients yet, but when I was interning with the acupuncturist that I started apprenticing with in high school, there was someone who had very much, like, built it into her identity, and, oh, man, I don't even know how to say it right, because it's so complex. But there was a certain part of her that liked the attention of the woe was me, and so, like, which, again, that's such a complex, like, hard thing to even say about someone who's, like, in constant pain. But it was a little bit of, like, her crutch for sympathy, her crutch for, like, getting out of things, and she had kind of resigned that she was never going to get better, and, like, was kind of using that as more of, like, her identity, like, she had become whatever it was that she had. I can't say that I saw her recover from that. A lot of that. I think with acupuncture and many things, I think therapy, like, is so important to go along with it, especially when something is chronic. I think there was, you know, it's not our place to do the counseling, and there are certain practitioners that will be very tough love with someone, which, although sometimes I feel like it's needed. I'm not the best person at, like, telling someone that, because, like, how do you even tell them that, you know, without, if they're not ready yet? It'll be one thing if someone brings it up, like, well, do you think, like, I might be stunting my healing by having this mindset and you know how I play off of it, that's another thing. But if it's unsolicited, I generally will hold my time for better or for worse.
[44:32] Valerie: Yeah. It is a very complex issue. I often think about this because, yes, of course, I'm going to have a lot of people come in with various different disorders, but also, like, various different mindsets. And the reason why I have shifted over to coaching is because I want to directly address the mindset. It's like, it's. It's honestly, like, number one in terms of being. You being able to, especially if you're going to look for a holistic practitioner, it's like a lot of the work actually rests on the patient, truly. Yeah. And it's. I think people really need to acknowledge and maybe even know that going in is just, we can only do so much for you, but you have to be willing to really take up the reins and do the rest. And sometimes it's just a matter of not giving up on yourself. I think that, you know, I had, there's one patient I always talk about because I really couldn't see how I was going to help her because she did not do a single thing that I told her to do. She did not take her herbs. She lost them and she had to reorder them. But she showed up every month for a year, and then after that, important.
[45:44] Erika: That's half the battle.
[45:45] Valerie: Yeah. And it's like so many people would have given up on either your practice, you know, the practitioner or themselves. But she came and after a year, she started her herbs. Right. And it made a difference. It did make the difference. And I think that, like, it's, even though she was at such a low point in her life, there was just so much going on for her. The fact that I didn't tell her to go away, you know, the fact that I was just like, okay, we're gonna make it even more simple this week, and you're gonna come back next time and we'll see what happens. But, yeah, it just takes, it's so complex, and it takes a lot. It takes a lot of insight from the practitioner, a lot of patience, and then, yeah, a lot of fortitude from the patient to just kind of keep trying.
[46:34] Erika: So I always try to meet people where they're at and manage expectations. Like, okay, you can get better. This is what I need from you. If you're still doing the thing that is making you sick, we just need to manage expectations that you're not going to get better or you're going to get better for, like, the next three to five days after your acupuncture treatment, and then you're going to be back to square one. Are you okay with that? And generally they're like, well, how can we make it more permanent? I'm like, well, lifestyle like you, like, you get an hour with me, you have 24, 7365 times however long you've been alive with yourself. So, like, it's not gonna be me that makes the difference. I'm here to just help facilitate the change. You have to keep it.
[47:16] Valerie: Absolutely, yeah, that's a really good point. So I want to segue then into what you're doing now with acupuncture about Urban Salt and your role in that and, like, what you want, what you want to tell the community. What do you want to tell the world about what you're doing?
[47:33] Erika: Well, first of all, I love it because I've been, I've worked for multiple clinics and the several ones that I worked with before I came to Urbansalt were insurance ran. And so I think that every, like practitioners, acupuncturist people, whoever, would benefit greatly from the community style because it's non insurance based and we are competitive with co pays. So basically something that's affordable for people, we do sliding scale from $35 to $55. I've worked in acupuncture clinics where they're charging upwards of $100 for an acupuncture session and billing the insurance as well. And so, yeah, the accessibility is super important and there's something to be said for healing with the community as well. But what I really like about it too is that it's a non profit and so that's huge, especially for the practitioners who want to work there because, you know, you already know about my debt, how horrifying that number is. But after working for ten years there full time, the rest gets forgiven after making, you know, minimum monthly payments. So, like, it's nice to see it because Doctor Candice Lopez, the founder of Urban Salt, has basically given hope to so many of her juniors because there's just like, no way, like, I used to cry myself to sleep about my student loans and there's just, there's no need for that, like, just to become a doctor in the medicine that is like, so healing a lot of people's last resorts, you shouldn't have to go up to debt and your eyeballs in order to, like, heal other people. So I love working there because it's not only benefiting me, it's benefiting the community and it's just one in a million. And I hope to see more models follow it. It's truly amazing.
[49:31] Valerie: Yeah.
[49:32] Erika: Yeah. No, I mean, I love that. I never wanted to take insurance. I saw a lot of flaws with it. When I was in high school and apprentice apprenticing, she would be on the phone for, like, a solid 30 minutes trying to get $25, and then she'd have to hang up because she'd have to go pull needles and, like, okay. Then she would go start the process all over, and a lot of people could, you know, skirt by this issue, hire a biller. But I'm like, it shouldn't be that hard for you to get paid for the work you've already done. And, you know, just with other patients, I myself, like, insurance is expensive. Like, there's an affordability crisis when it comes to healthcare, and so it's really important to me to keep it at an affordable rate. People just come in, pay whatever they can, and, you know, essentially, like, you do what you can. You meet the community where you're at. They take care of you also. It's just a beautiful process. I'm so grateful for having been open.
[50:32] Valerie: Yeah. So let's briefly touch upon what you just said about the insurance stuff and the overall, like, just the landscape that we are in. Right. Because I know that part of the reason why Urban Salt exists is because of this issue. So can you talk a little bit about the challenges that people face in getting care and how that fits in with acupuncture?
[50:58] Erika: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So, like, for instance, like, the VA is a shining example where it can take you months to get seen for something, and you're just stuck there waiting for your next appointment and a ton of pain, and they're like, well, here's some opioids, you know, and like, okay, great. That's why we have a crisis in this country with pain pills. And so, basically, acupuncture helps to kind of fill in the gap between their next appointment, if not completely get rid of the issue, depending on what it is. Right. And so, like, the VA is kind of a shining example of that. Like, these people are covered. They have care, but they can't receive the care because it's so backlogged, and it's just. It's not accessible. Like, it might be affordable to them because they've served and now they're able to, like, get it, but it's not accessible. And so we have accessibility and affordability with quality care. And so then you have the other end of, like, private insurance companies that it's accessible. There's plenty out there. You can do it, but it's not affordable. And so we like to kind of bridge it and, like, meet people in the middle and give them a solution, whether it's from, like, appointment a to appointment bdez or for instance, like, I have a patient who's, like, getting hip surgery, and this is like, she can't take medication leading up ten days into her surgery. So, like, this is her only, like, pain killing option. And, you know, it's a bit of a band aid because we're not going to fix her hip. Like, it does need to be replaced, but, like, it is essentially point a to point b, and we're just the in between to help her get there.
[52:40] Valerie: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of issue with that. I know that you haven't been in practice too long, but since you are kind of new to the game, you've probably seen in school just like, a lot of the evolution of approaches maybe that have happened in teaching acupuncture in the recent years. From your perspective, what direction do you see and what role do you see acupuncture in Chinese medicine having in the United States in the coming future?
[53:11] Erika: I definitely think it will just blow up because we're finally getting the word out. It's covered by many insurances, so that's already, like, huge. The only issue is a lot of acupuncturists are not wanting to take insurance for undeniable reasons that we don't get paid very well for all the work that we do. So that's probably going to be, like, the biggest hurdle. But it is. It is definitely becoming something that more and more people use. Like, my grandpa even knows about it, not just because I'm his granddaughter and an acupuncture, but he's like, oh, yeah, so and so from church said that they got this, or they're like, oh, my gosh, you know what? One of my good friends was able to have kids because it helped with fertility. And so it is becoming more of a talking point. You'll see it more on the coasts, for sure. It's definitely more progressive areas, sure. But I do see it becoming something that's more up and coming. The hardest hurdle is kind of getting paid well for what we do by insurance companies because that's going to be like, the biggest reason insurances are not going to want to keep covering us is because not enough practitioners want to be on insurance panels because they don't pay well. And so it's kind of a double edged sword being with the insurance groups because you're going to help. It kind of grow with the masses that way. But then there's also a point of like, well, you got to be able to pay your bills too.
[54:40] Valerie: Yeah.
[54:41] Erika: So, yeah, that's kind of the biggest issue there for sure.
[54:44] Valerie: This is our last question. What would you tell someone who is considering acupuncture but is maybe afraid of doing it or doesn't know too much about it and is hesitant to. To try it?
[54:58] Erika: My biggest thing is, like, there is truly nothing to lose. Like, why not just see what happens? You know, like, it's an hour of your life. $35 to $55 if you come to Urban Salt or if they're. You might be covered. A lot of times, like, on insurance, they'll cover one to two a year. So boo. Use it up. So, like, there truly is nothing to lose. And if you have reservations or are afraid of needles, then you work with your practitioner and talk about that and they'll go at your pace. We're all about consent. We don't want to put you in a position where you feel like you are doing this against your will or, you know, there's always ways around things. They're like, oh, well, I'm afraid to get it in my hands and my feet. I'm like, okay, there's bigger portions of your body that we can do that will still get like a pretty similar effect. So there's. Or we could even do acupressure. You know? You know, go in to learn about it, see if it's for you. And, like, like, truly, like, what's the worst that could happen? You might get a bruise, right? And it, let's say you, you end up not wanting to get needled because you can't overcome that fear, then that's okay. Do acupressure. There are always, like, alternatives in acupuncture or the practice of TCM. And that's what I love about it, you know, like, we even have a little like, pushpin thing that sends out like, electricity. And so, like, you can use those on acupoints. We can send you home with ear seeds. Like, it's truly, like, just go, go try it. Go learn. Like, anytime anyone has any wants to try but they're scared, I truly recommend, like, we'll just do it. Just go see, like, you don't have to do it for the rest of your life. Just try it for a day and see if it resonates.
[56:40] Valerie: Amazing. Well, thank you, Doctor Erika, for being here today. How can we find you online?
[56:48] Erika: So I have an Instagram @ precision acupuncture.
[56:55] Valerie: Right?
[56:55] Erika: Yes. @Urbansaltacu.
[56:58] Valerie: Okay, awesome. All right. Thank you so much for being here today, and I hope that you have more patients come to see you in the future.
[57:05] Erika: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I love learning more about your medicine, too.
[57:10] Valerie: Thank you.
