[00:00] Valerie: Rise, renew, reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where every story ignites hope and healing. Alright, so today my guest is Michael Greenhouse and we were both students at the Southern California University of Health Sciences as ayurveda students. And so today Michael is tuning in from Bali and I am really happy to have you here. So welcome, Michael.
[00:39] Michael: Thanks, Valerie. It's great to be here.
[00:42] Valerie: Amazing. So we have a lot to dig into. And I know aside from being an ayurvedic practitioner, you're also a meditation teacher and you've been doing that for quite some time. I always like to start out by asking my guests, they're from the ashes story. So a from the ashes story is a story of a time in your life where you feel like you have had to reinvent yourself, start over, rebirthing from the ashes moment. But since you are a meditation teacher and I know that you did a Vipassana retreat in 2007, right? I'd like to angle that question a little bit and also ask you what inspired that first meditation retreat and we'll go from there.
[01:32] Michael: Okay, so I guess the inner sadist in me keeps going back to Vipassana because I just completed another vipassana about a month ago. But it was that first one in 2007 that really revolutionized my life. Like, I was in India and I was, I was just traveling around, you know, I was there for nine months and I think I spent like a few thousand dollars. I was just backpacking around India and I was interested in meditation at the time, but meditation to me was just listening to like, you know, chilled out music and like smoking a cigarette in my bed. It wasn't like any sort of hardcore dharma practice or. I didn't even know what Dharma was. And a friend of mine recommended the Vipassana. And had I known what I was getting into, I never would have gone because it was so old school and very difficult. But it ultimately changed my life and revolutionized me as a person. You know, it made me understand or helped me understand that everything in our body, emotions, thoughts, sensations, you know, it's really just data. At the end of the day, we are always in choice on how to respond to this data. And Vipassana teaches you just that little extra second between stimulus and response can make all the difference. There's a great quote by Victor Frankel, the Holocaust survivor, and I don't know if he was a meditator, but he has the best quote about meditation. He says, between stimulus and response there is space, and in that space there is choice. And in that choice lay our freedom. So in that retreat, you know, as like a dumb American, I couldn't sit still on a cushion for 30 seconds. And I was in so much pain, you know, I had knee pain, back pain, mental pain, you know, like, what am I doing here? These people are insane. How did I end up in this crazy situation? And it's through that technique, just observing pain as, like, raw data and just dropping the story about, you know, my running injury, my lower back pain or whatever, and just observing it, it just totally changed my life. And then, you know, 30 seconds on the cushion turned into 60 seconds into a couple minutes. And by the end of retreat, I could sit for 15 minutes or something. And now it's just like home base for me, sitting in that meditation position. It's just so natural. And I forget that I started at such a basic, basic level. But having said that, that's like a nice preamble to the ayurveda and like the from the ashes thing because meditation, that was 17 years ago now. And it really, my practice has sort of vacillated between the Vipassana, the Theravada stuff, and lately it's been more Tibetan lineage. But that's always been a through line for me through my spiritual practice, and it's been an absolutely essential guide for me. But Ayurveda for the past, gosh, I'll be 45 and next month. So I guess since I was 22, you know, for almost 20 years, I would. I wanted to be a novelist. You know, I wrote a couple novels. And, you know, when I got to LA, it was, you know, pilots and stuff like that, and, you know, lots of short stories. And so for 20 years, you know, I wrote books and I wrote, you know, and I supported myself by waiting tables in the evening, both in New York City, where I spent 13 years in LA, where I was there for about six years. And it just, you know, for 20 years, it really felt like I was like Sisyphus, like just pushing a boulder up a hill. And it was just not happening for me. And as I got older and I continued to write, and then as I hit 40 and I'm still waiting tables and I don't have an agent and my books are just dying on my desktop, and I'm getting more and more into meditation. I'm getting more and more into natural health and biohacking and all of this stuff. And I'm waking up early and then getting off of work at 02:00 a.m. doesn't really, it's not really conducive to the circadian rhythms and the healthy lifestyle. So it was a hard. Like, when Covid happened in March 2020, I was so burnt out, and I was so, like, not in a good place, you know? I was like, what am I doing? Like, I'm 40 years old. I'm still waiting tables. I'm still, like, writing. When Covid happened, it was like, okay, just give me two weeks. Just give me two weeks off. I just want to have two weeks. And just, like, you know, away from the restaurant. And then when two turned into four, and then, you know, it turned into a couple months, I remember I was in Florida, and I was driving my mom to work, and she, because my parents live in Florida, and I would leave LA and I'd go back and visit, and she was like, what are you doing? You know? Like, what are you doing? And I was like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's like, even that survival job, you know, wasn't happening because of the pandemic. And she's like, why don't you go back to school? And I was like, she's like, there's got to be something that you want to do. And I was like, well, there is, actually. And I was like, there's ayurveda. And she's like, what's that? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know what it is. You know, I knew intuitively what it is being. You know, I haven't spent a year in India and studying meditation, being into yoga, and, like, I was kind of just circling ayurveda without really realizing it and being in the natural health. So at 40 years old, you know, I went back to school, and it was, like, very humbling, to say the least, and to start over. And I would say the meditation practice was absolutely vital and indispensable and essential to actually navigate that phase of my life with a semblance of confidence and self acceptance. But even, like, during that first year, it was still like, oh, my God, what am I doing? You know, I'm just learning about. About this thing. It's like, what am I doing? And then, like, about a year, like, it took about at least a year maybe into the second year where ayurveda, like, really clicked for me, where it's like my lifestyle, like, my health started to change and it started to change me. And then it was like, okay, this is the path, you know? And then there was a moment and I remember it very specifically. It was probably towards the end of the second year, about maybe a year and a half or maybe a year and three quarters into the. Into the journey, and I'm talking to my friend on the phone. I'm walking around the Silver Lake reservoir, right? And I remember, like, where I was, and my friends are. My friends are writer as well. And I'm just talking about this whole journey, you know, this whole health journey. And it just kind of came out of my mouth, like, without even really thinking about it. And I was talking about writing. I was like, you know, I was like, I left everything on the table with writing. It's like, I tried as hard as I could. I wrote two novels. I wrote a couple pilots. You know, I did all the networking, the agenting, and the, you know, the emailing and all the business side of it. I was like, you know, I left everything on the table. I worked as hard as I could. I was as creative as possible. I was very disciplined. And you know, what didn't work out. And it was just, like, such a clean feeling of, like, all right, I'm done. Like, I'm just. I'm, like, segueing into something new. And it was surprising, you know, it's like, you know that sunken cost fallacy where it's like, you sink 20 years into something, and then there's that bulldog in me that's like, okay, you know, I'm not letting go of this. I've just invested too much. But it was like, you know what? I can walk away with a clean conscious knowing that I gave it all I could. And then when we finished school a few months later, there was a moment. I was in. I was in the sequoias. I went on this, like, solo camping trip in the sequoias. And, like, I brought my journal. You know, I, like, brought a beer. You know, I cracked open a beer, and I'm sitting there at the picnic table in this, like, incredible environment, and I had this sort of, like, download. I had been on the illusion. It's like, you know, I had chosen to study ayurveda, but I had this, like, download where it was like, you know those claw crane machines where you, like, plunk a quarter in, and then the claw, like, kind of comes and grabs a teddy bear whose face is, like, against the glass. Glass, and if you're lucky, it will pull it out and you get a teddy bear out of it. I had this distinct feeling that I was just, like, this teddy bear. His face was pressed against the glass and the long arm of ayurveda. The universe has plunked a quarter, and it just rescued me. It just plucked me out of this teddy bear soup and just took me out and just extracted me. So it was an interesting, like, okay, not that I'm, like, some special, like, prodigy or something, but it's like, there's. It, like, felt like it was not an individual decision. It was like a co creation with, like, a deeper intelligence. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this thing. You know? And then it's. Since then, it's been. Been quite a ride. And I've learned so much, you know, just about myself and about other people and just about healing and health in general. And my story, it's just like, starting over at such a late age. It's really given me, like, an understanding and a compassion for people. And it's also. It always used to trip me out. It's like, you know, we are expected at 21, 22, maybe even younger, when we graduate college or high school to, you know, select a career, which is such a trip. And we're like. Like, our brains aren't even formed yet. Like, we're just kids. Like, how do we know, like, what we want to be doing for 40 years? It's just so mind blowing. So, you know, at 22, I decided I wanted to be like the great american novelist. And then when I was at 40, when I hit 40, it was like getting into Dharma and Ayurveda and natural health. It's like having my mind blown just reading these texts and getting into the spiritual journey. It's like fiction just didn't hold a candle to that. It's like my satisfaction with fiction was just becoming less and less. And the books that really inspired me and that I love, it was like once every few years, I'd read one of these books in my early twenties. It was revelatory and just so insightful, and I loved it. But by the time I hit 40, I was like, this is. It's kind of dumb. It's like I read so much, and, like, so much of it was just mediocre. I get so much more out of reading Dharma or Ayurveda or health or spiritual books. My whole interest had changed. You know, everything had changed. And I just am grateful I had the wisdom and also the support to pivot and make a big change at 40. And now it just feels, actually, for the first time in my life, like, my values and my career and my goals are all congruent, and it's a really strange but also satisfying feeling.
[13:47] Valerie: Yeah, I definitely feel you on the starting over and just the sunken cost fallacy. I feel like up until a certain point, I still was holding onto that. Like, I need to use everything that I've ever learned, and I gotta make it all worth it. Yeah. When you do that, it just like, you kind of lose yourself, too, because it's like you start to live for somebody else. And that can veer you off the path that you're meant to go on.
[14:17] Michael: Absolutely. And then the sunken cost, it's like you're kind of. You're kind of being controlled by, like, a past self. You know, it's like your forward momentum is kind of being. It's like a lot of inertia is created. You know, it's like you're not leading from a vision. You're leading from some sort of, like, guilt or obligation. And it's very subtle. It's. Yet still, it can kind of change the whole trajectory of your career and of your life. You know, it's like just that. It's like a clenching energy, like hanging on to something you think that you've, like, actually invested. But in reality, it's like every moment is like the Venn diagram of, like, karma and creativity. You know, it's like every moment is like a result of past moments, but it's also infinitely creative. So when we're, like, stuck in the sunken cost fallacy, we're attuned and sort of, like, buying into the karma aspect of it, where it's just. So we're governed by the past, but we're losing sight of the creativity aspect. And it's both things always, like, ad infinitum, perpetually. It's karma and creativity. It's destiny and free will. So, like, when we're stuck in the past and the sunken costs and those investments we've made that we want dividends from, we're overly reliant on the karma and the destiny. And it's. I listened to this interview once. It was with, you know, shreshi, Ravi Shankar. You know him, the art of living guy. He said something in his really sweet, like, innocent way once. He's like, you know, it's like people really look back at their lives and in the past, and they think that, like, every. Every, like, their past is like a result of, you know, or their. Their present moment is a result of, like, bad choices. He's like. And then they look at the future, and it's like it's already predetermined. You know, he's like, but you just have to reverse it. The future, it's like all choice, right? You know, it's like, yeah, okay, maybe in the past it's like you. You made some choices that got you here, but in the future, it's all creativity and just switch your mindset. You know, in Buddhism, it's like, you know, the. It's the view. You know, it's like the right view is often considered, like the first and last spoke of, like, the Eightfold path. And that has been so extraordinarily helpful to me. It's like just the view and how you see things or how I see things, it's just this subtle, like, you know, like a slide projector. You're just putting a new slide in your vision. And it's one of the things with Ayurveda that's been so mind blowing. It's like the simplest things often create the greatest dividends and the greatest downstream result. And just changing my attitude and my perspective on things has made, like, all the difference. To be honest with you. It's actually made me less reliant on external sources to fix things because I know it's like so many solutions can just be endogenously creatively generated.
[17:35] Valerie: And I think what I'm also hearing as you talk is that there's a lot less fear that's going to go into your actions now that you do have kind of the center. Because, you know, when we are trying to make it, so to say, by becoming an author, artist, et cetera, et cetera, there's always this kind of like, worry that it's not going to work out. But it's like if you don't get this result, everything else was not really meant goes to waste. And that creates that kind of scarcity mindset. But when you have it so that it's like you're already just doing and embodying what you were meant to do. You're living in alignment with your convictions and your values and kind of like that dharma, then it's like no moment is wasted as long as you're centered in that.
[18:21] Michael: Totally.
[18:23] Valerie: And I find, like, even with fewer resources than you've had in the past, like, there's a path that you are, like, you feel like everything is aligned so it doesn't feel as, I don't know, like ripping. Does that make sense?
[18:36] Michael: Right?
[18:37] Valerie: Yeah.
[18:37] Michael: Yeah, totally. And I've also been, like, lately I've just been thinking a lot about, like, what does making it even mean? You know, if I had a book published or, like, I was on, or if I appeared on Joe Rogan or some. Something like that. It's like, what does that mean? Okay. More people would hear me, but then, you know, a week later, the book would just be kind of forgotten about, and the podcast would just disappear into the Internet. And then I just, like, start over again and have to, like, keep promoting myself. It, like, never ends. It was like, there's never a point where you're perpetually making it. You're just solidified in the canon of greatness. It's always a constant flow and a constant process making it okay. Yeah, there's a certain level of financial stability that everybody aspires to, but even then, it's okay. You may be financially stable for a year or two, but then you have to keep hustling and keep working. So what does making it even mean? It's like, how do you define making it? Is it some sort of inner value or inner self worth or inner happiness, or is it some sort of reach? As an educator, as someone who wants to talk about Ayurveda or self compassion or whatever, it's like just getting your message into as many ears as possible. It's like, what does that mean to make it? I've just been really kind of pondering what that definition is and what it means to me now and also, like, checking in with my intentions. Why am I emailing, like, this one podcast to appeal, like, appear on somebody's, this famous influencer? Do I just want to appear to be someone? Or do I actually feel compelled to share the message and just checking in with myself? You know, it's like, what do I want here? It's just so it can get kind of sticky. You know, everybody has that sort of, you know, egoic desire. And when your values can be, you know, sort of like, your intentions can be aligned or pure, then you can trick yourself, you know, into saying, oh, I just want to spread the. The dharma or the Vidya of ayurveda or something. But so I'm just deeply pondering that lately. It's like, what does that even mean? Because I see so many people hustling and hustling and hustling to get, you know, record the videos and then the podcasts and then the newsletters and, you know, Instagram. And it's like, okay, there's a certain amount of, like, hustle everyone has to do, but what are we doing? You know? So I've just been deeply questioning that lately.
[21:25] Valerie: Yeah, I appreciate that, too, because, like, you could get really stuck in other people's what you should be doing and what needs to happen. Da da da da da da. Right. There's this pace to life that it seems to really advocate for you just to go go without really thinking about what it is you're actually doing. And at the end of the day, are you really still centered in yourself if you continue to put so much energy outward and so much attention outward? I want to ask you a question, because you said from 22 ish to 40, right. Is when you were. That's actually a long time to be pursuing something, and you have to be pretty motivated to keep going. What would you say is the difference between the motivation you had during that time period and the motivation that you feel now?
[22:17] Michael: Hmm. Great question. Let me just tune into that for a second. I think if I could answer. I think it's more now it's more service oriented. Like, I feel like my. The congruency I mentioned earlier, it's like the alignment between, like, being service to other. Being in service to others, and then also being in service to myself, that's a congruency. If I had to, like, hone in on that for, like, what that actually meant. But I think with the fiction, it was more just for me, it's like the writing, it was like, okay, I want to just be someone or make it as an author or something, but there wasn't really any sort of service element to that. It was just like, me, me, me. I just want to have my name on a book and have a publisher and be this, sort of, like, be part of the Brooklyn intelligentsia or something. And it was. And thank God that didn't happen, because that just seems so, like, not my jam anymore, you know? So I think that's the difference. I think it's a service element. And not to say that fiction can't be of service and you can't learn a lot from good books, but it's just, in my opinion, it just kind of pales in comparison to any sort of, like, spiritual practice or meditation or lifestyle adjustments and just helping people reduce suffering. And I think that's one of the. As I got deeper into Buddhism, and I have a bit of a unique background with ayurveda, because I was already. My teabag was already pretty dharma steeped when I found ayurveda. And so I kind of came into the, you know, that with a Buddhist background, and a lot of the Buddhism is compassion. You know, it's like compassion for other beings and compassion for self and compassion for other so it really, like, informed my ayurveda practice, like big time. And also just can, you know, inform my, my life. So it's, I think, to answer your question, you know, without rambling, uh, too much, it's, um, it's definitely this, the service, the service aspect of the career where it's like, what I'm doing is, um, can actually help people. Not to say I help people. Every client who comes to see me, I do my best. But it, you know, it's often has to be a marriage, you know, like a nice marriage between the client and the practitioner. But also I think, um, you know, one of my frustrations with fiction was that, like you, I would read so many books that are just like totally non service oriented. They're just like egoic, like vomit. And I just can't, it's just not worth my time anymore to read something like that. You know, I went from reading, you know, dozens of novels a year to maybe reading one or two, which is like, sad to say, but I think that's it. It's like, you know, any, just talking about books, it's like any meditation book or Ayurveda book or health book or spiritual book, it's all of service. It's all written in service to help people. And with writing, it's just with fiction, it's just not the case. I mean, it can be. And now I'm actually just like a bad habit. I just can't stop writing. But now I'm writing something that's like, it's a little bit different. And coming from that place of service, or so I like to think. I mean, we can easily kid ourselves.
[26:11] Valerie: The reason why I asked this question is because I have a similar background as a hip hop artist and really burnt out on that because, you know, it's Hollywood and commercial dance and there's ego everywhere. It really didn't sit well with me. And at the end of the day, I burnt out because I really, it fizzled my passion. And even if I could find small, little outlets where I could be of service, you know, people wouldn't really gravitate towards that. And I couldn't really survive on that. It was really hard for me to make peace with that. I couldn't really do my art the way that I wanted to. But it's always been a passion. Dance has always been a passion. It's been a self expression. It's like as long as I can be of service in the way that I want and dance, I'm happy to do it. So now that I know that you're writing again, was writing ever a passion for you, or did it really start as just like, oh, I want to be known as the best writer kind of thing?
[27:15] Michael: Oh, it was definitely a passion for me. I mean, the passion sort of waned over the years, but I think a lot of it has to do with, like, which I guess is just natural. If you start doing something as a passion and then nobody really cares, then maybe the energy behind that passion starts to wane a little bit. And I think that's what happened. I think it's like, once, I mean, not to say that it's entirely dependent on other people's opinions or perspectives, but if you're an artist in any capacity and you create something and nobody cares, then it's going to diminish your passion a little bit. I mean, that's just the way it is. So I think, especially in my twenties, 100% was a passion, but then it just. Nobody really cared, number one. And number two, my interest has started to change because I started to grow as a person. And so it was like these two dual parallel tracks that kind of just veered me into a different life altogether. If you asked me even five years ago, I still would have just said, this is what I want. This is what I'm on this planet to do. But now it's just like, oh, thank God that didn't happen. Thank God. Because I would just be. I mean, who knows? I can't say this with any, like, with 100% accuracy, but I'd probably just be like this. I'd still be living in New York or LA, and I'd still. And I'd be, like, neurotic and, like, over caffeinated and probably, like, anxious and. And just, like, not the person I am. I'm just a different person, you know? Like, these practices have totally changed me in these, like, these deep, deep cultural traditions that go back thousands of years have just totally changed me. And I wouldn't trade that for anything. And just, like, ironically, it's like, here I am writing again, but it's from this different place, and it's also from one of joy and excitement and interest, and then it is like some sort of, you know, obligation to get published and start a career and get out of the restaurant. It's just from a different place. Like, not only my perspective, but my intention. It's just been such an incredible journey, and it's. And it doesn't. It's just not going to end ever. It's just going to keep going. So I'm sure if we talk in a few years and be like, oh, my God, listen, you know, it's just so, you know, it's just mind blowing. It's just to fall in love with the journey no matter what stage you're at, and just ultimately shift your view of, like, okay, well, I'm in 51% of control of, like, how I respond to things. I mean, that's meditation in a nutshell. It's like responsibility to every situation, really into taking your mindfulness and your meditation practice off the cushion for 20 minutes a day and just bringing it into daily life. It's like I'm in response. I mean, I'm in control of my response to things. So if I'm in control of my response to things, I'm in sort of control all the time. And how I view things is how the world shape shifts and appears to me. I have a meditation student I've been working with for many years. He's a kid, you know, he started in 14, now he's like 18. You know, I tell him it's like, you know, if you walk into a store with a smile on your face, you know, you're going to get a different response from the clerk and everybody than you walk into a store with sunglasses on and, like, you know, like, looking at your shoes. It's just the way the world is. It's like just to view it with a different perspective, it just changes the way the world shape shifts and manifests and how it took me, like, you know, 25 or 45 years to learn that, you know, it's just, like, still a practice, but it's just like these simple metrics of how I try to live my life that's just. I don't know. It's just like there's been something really liberating that's sort of unlocked for me in the past couple years where it's like, okay, my number one responsibility is to be in complete command and control of my view in my perspective on life. That's like, number one. It's like I do that every morning when I sit down and I meditate. And if I'm grumpy, I own the grumpiness. If I'm sleepy, I own the sleepiness. And I just sit with things as they are and I metabolize how I'm feeling, which, you know, isn't always, like, positive, but then I always try to just lean into that view. You know, it's just like, lean into that view and it's like reversing 25 years of cynicism. It's been a process, but it's like I feel like, you know, I've got my elbows on the ledge of like the next stage of this video game, whatever it is. And I find that the most important thing that I can do personally is to just shift my view and my perspective and trust, you know, without getting too woo woo. But just trust. It's just like a. The way that. Just the way it is, you know, just. Just to trust, you know, there's a great quote. It's like, I think it's a Sufi quote. Trust in God, but tether your camel to the post. It's like, just be practical, but also trust. It's two sides of the same coin. It's like both are absolutely necessary. And I spent so long, just like time the knot of the rope and just tether it, being practical without the trust element. So I just find it's like such a necessary synergy.
[33:29] Valerie: Sometimes I float between the two. Sometimes I feel like I'm letting go a lot and just allowing it without tethering. But tethering is definitely still very important, so that you're responsible for whatever may come right to.
[33:45] Michael: Totally. And that's like ayurveda and the seasons, you know, ayurveda, it's like no one medicine works for all the time for one person. It's like, what if you take Ashwagandha and that works for you now in two weeks, it may be a completely different ballgame.
[34:00] Valerie: Yeah. You know, I want to ask because there's a lot of directions I could take this conversation, but I do want to touch upon the ayurveda and the mental health, since that's what we reconnected on before. And it is really what I'm working on, focusing on. And I believe what you are also focusing on. It's kind of where I see a lot of the magic of ayurveda happening. Even though when we were in school, it wasn't necessarily the main focus. We spent a lot of time thinking about the doshas, of course, and also the herbal medicines and the ways of treatment. But there's this whole side of ayurveda that I was. The reason why I even got into ayurveda is because of this psychospiritual context that it gives to everything. So I want to know a little bit about how Ayurveda has informed your practice as a practitioner, as a meditation teacher and. Yeah. What is your perspective on that?
[35:03] Michael: I have a lot to say on that issue, I find that when I first started to see clients and whatnot, it's like I would tell people to eat this and don't eat that and shake this herb and stop eating french fries or something. But as I've developed and grown my practice, I've seen that most physiological, physical problems are downstream of choices that we make, first of all, but also stress and trauma and self compassion and self criticism. And there's a great. Do you know Buckminster Fuller? He has a really legendary quote. It's actually on his tombstone. It says, call me trim tab. Right? He has this notion of the trim tab because he says that, like, an ocean liner, for example, is controlled by the rudder, the direction, the directionality. The ocean liner is controlled by the rudder, but the rudder is controlled by this, like, little piece of plastic, right? That kind of, like, helps the rudder vacillate, like, back and forth and which controls the ocean liner. So he says, you know, call me trim tab. He's like, I'm just this little piece of plastic that's, like, directing the rudder. That's directing the ocean liner. And I find that, like, the view back to Buddhism and how we see things and how we treat ourselves and our mental health is the trim tab of our whole lives, not only our physical health, but, like, how we interact with the world. And there is an incredible, in Ayurveda, the notion of prajna paradha, which translates to crimes against wisdom. And this is so instructive and helpful. And I use this with almost all my clients. Crimes against wisdom is, like, so, like, the classic example in Robert Svoboda. I think I got this from him. But he says it's like, okay, so let's say you're streaming Netflix. It's late at night, and you get to go to the freezer, you get some ice cream, and then you just start eating ice cream. Then you stream a second episode, and you keep eating. And then the next thing you know, it's like the. You know, you're on, like, season ten, the ice cream's empty, and then, like, you wake up in the morning with, like, a tummy ache, and you didn't sleep well. And so according to this notion of Prajna Parada, it's not the ice cream or the television that made you sleep bad and cause you a bellyache. It's actually the choice that you made bite after bite and episode after episode to keep streaming and to keep eating. When you know how this story unfolds, it's like, it's not your first rodeo, you know, you've, you've. Everybody's finished the ice cream before when you know that's not in your best interest to do so. So that would be, like, the root cause, right? That choice is the root cause, the choice that we make that is so subtle and imperceptible, bite after bite to keep eating when we know how we're gonna feel in the morning. And that has given me, like, that choice is meditation. Because in meditation, you, when your mind wanders, you make a choice to return to your breath or to the mantra or whatever it is you're using as an object. That choice, moment by moment, breath by breath, you know, day by day, minute by minute, is everything. And that is, like, upstream of so many aspects of health, physical health, right? It's those choices that we make. So starting there, like, with the trim tab and the process and ferrata and the choices, it's like understanding that mechanism and getting clients to understand that mechanism, where it's, like, less the food choices that we make, but also the quantities that we eat and how we eat it. But it's also, like, so many other things. It's like that choice, that invisible choice we keep making bite after bite to fill a void within ourselves. And that's, like, when the. The self compassion thing comes in, it's like, really, like, revolutionized my life, and it's revolutionized my practice, where I see so many people who just hate themselves, like, and they don't even know it, you know? And I. And it's like an illness that I can see in others because I had the same illness, and I didn't know that I had it, you know, until it was pointed out to me. And then I realized that I was, like, while I was so nice and I was so kind to everyone else, to myself, I was this mercy merciless monster who had impossibly high standards. And until I started to really cultivate that self compassion practice, and I realized that almost everything I was seeking exogenously in the external world was due to this void of self love that I just couldn't generate for myself. And once I started to take up this practice of providing myself internal validation, I stopped seeking it. Or I would say I seek it less and less from the outside world, because I've learned how to forgive myself and have self compassion for either poor choices that I've made or things that happened to me. This is a daily thing, daily practice. I mean, for big things in life and small things, you know? So, like, once I sort of had learned and got wise to providing myself with this, like, internal, like, hey, it's okay, you know, you did the best you can. You're doing the best you can. It's. Your intentions are good. Didn't work out, but that's all right, man. It's all good. I love you. I forgive you. It's like that void that, like, validation void that so many people feel now. And that's been sort of, like, just driven to the maximum of insanity by social media. And, like, the world that we live in, it starts to, like, that need, you know, starts to become less and less, and I see that, and I try to really, like, when the mental health thing, it's like, the self compassion is so important, like, just beyond important. And it's like this invisible disorder that's, like, largely undiagnosed. And almost every something has just gone off the rails in the western world. And, like, you know, having worked in Thailand and now Bali, it's like, it's not just the US. It's like, people from all over the western world have this, and it's just incredibly pernicious and silent in the way that it kind of catabolizes your I ability to just be okay with yourself. I mean, it's just crazy. And so I see a lot of, like, talk about the mental health and physical health, the relationship, the self compassion thing is so important, and also that is so applicable when it comes to trauma and stress, you know? You know, trauma is, like, it's such a big topic and very in vogue now, and rightfully so. I mean, it gives me hope for humanity when, like, you look at the New York Times bestseller list and, like, the body keeps a score has been on there for, like, years now, and it's like, oh, my God, maybe, like, there is hope for us, you know? But sometimes it's. I find that some people I know can overly focus on that. This can create, like, perpetual asterisks and, you know, to, well, being in the present moment. And this can put you on this perpetual journey to solve this problem, that you have this unconscious belief that you can't be happy or you can't be well until this problem is fixed. And this creates an addiction to the journey. And Gabbar mate writes a lot about this. And Terence McKenna wrote, he has this great quote, and he was talking about mushrooms and psychedelics. He was saying, it's like, you know, everybody wants to sweep up Baba's ashram floor for 20 years, you know, but given, like, presented with the opportunity to take, like, you know, a heroic dose of mushrooms that would solve all their problems right now, he's like, nobody would want to do that. Everybody is just in love with the journey. And so it's so true, you know? And, like, I find myself falling for it often still, and it's like a constant reminder. And there's a really incredible book I'm reading right now. And you read it, I think, already free. Bruce Tipp. Yeah. And that book is just so awesome. It's just like, it really ties together in meditation and mental health and just like, how it's okay to just feel everything and how it really builds upon that quote, that Carl Jung quote, all neurosis is like an avoidance of true suffering. That's the crawley, unquote. This whole book is basically unpacking that for, you know, 300 pages or something where it's like, no matter what it is, it's like, it's not abandonment or, like unlovability or something. It's just a feeling in your belly. It's like, just like a feeling. And you're just creating a label and just feel it. That's it. It's so simple, you know? I mean, it's hard. And as I say in meditation, so simple, but not easy. Nothing could be more simple, but it's still difficult. So the mental health thing, it's like the doshas and all that. It's important, but I find it's not as interesting to me then the choices that we're making, because everything is downstream of that. And not only the choices to reach for the ice cream or not reach for the ice cream, but, like, how we treat ourselves, which is also, I hate to say it, and like, even as I'm saying it, like, my inner critic is like, I don't know. But, like, the choices that we make, like, you know, it's also how we treat ourselves. We're actually making choices all the time.
[45:39] Valerie: So I have some really good points to. Yeah, just point out. So I went to a trauma and Ayurveda conference last year in Colorado held by Colorama, and they were talking about how Prana, the same prana for Prana paradha, it can be translated as felt sense. And so they were describing how when trauma happens, you lose your sense of Prana, you lose your felt sense. And so Prana, again, we can think about it as wisdom, but at the same time, it's like you lose the connection with yourself and your ability to really do things that are going to fulfill yourself because you just, that influx of trauma which we can see as maybe sudden prana or whatever, whatever disturbance. It is like a sudden Rodgerson Thomas as well can really cause this disconnect. And I was in the clinic one day at school and this lady came in and she gave herself diabetes. Basically a few family members had died because of COVID She was really angry. She was upset that people were getting vaccinated and whatnot. And the way to deal with it was to have coke floats every night for dinner, every single night. And so what happens is two weeks of that and your blood sugar is already just through the roof. But what was really striking to me was when she was asked to stop it, she's like, doctor, don't take away those coke floats. It's all that I have to keep me going, right? And it's. You're right in that it's like you're making choices about yourself and like, how you love yourself. And when you lose that sense of Prana, inner felt sense of, like, what your body needs to heal, that is all mental health. That is, you know, it has. She knows that coke floats are not good for her.
[47:39] Michael: Totally. Yeah, it's all. I mean, yeah, of course we can talk when it comes to like a, you know, you stub your toe or like you get in a car accident or something. It's like. But it's most of its mental health, most of it. And it's just continuously astonishing to me how it all goes back to choices and it all goes back to how we treat ourselves. And I think in our education, it is like, especially in California, it's those liability issues. And it starts to get into kind of tricky territory as a practitioner when it comes to the mental health. And I think that's part of the reason why, even though our mentors and our professors, incredibly wise people. But I think maybe they don't emphasize it as much as it should be emphasized. But what you're saying with the notion of how we lose touch with our true self with trauma, it really is just kind of reminds me in the book, the already free book, and then with the young quote and everything, it's like with the neurosis, it kind of creates this armoring around ourselves with trauma. Trauma creates this neurosis because we don't want to re experience that unpleasant feeling. So it's almost like this imposter self. You know, we become energetically or somatically this, like, imposter self because it becomes. It's like we think it's too unpalatable or too difficult to actually, you know, feel like that core vulnerability or feel that wound. So we have this imposter self, this trauma sheath around us, you know, that we just kind of live with. And that's who we think we are. And so many of us just operate from that perspective. And it's just being in this position. It's like a practitioner that gently, very gently tries to point that out. It's always interesting because people, it's like different gradations of interest of people that want to hear about it. It's like the woman you mentioned, it's like, don't take my coke floats, you know, away from me. And, and I've seen. I have so many stories about people and. And, like, and clients that are just, you know, sometimes it can be something so superficial, like, it's just. But then even the superficial thing, like, even if it's a coke float, that's like causing your type two diabetes or you're over your weight gain or something. But that's something superficial is always has. Like, the roots go a little deeper, that craving. Back to Buddhism, it's like that first noble truth, the suffering. The second noble truth is the cause of suffering is craving. Desire, Tanha, thirst. So to get to that desire and that craving, it's like lifting up under the hood of the Koch float and seeing what's going on there. That's like, where I'm just super interested and fascinated. Ayurveda is like a root cause medicine. It's addressing the root cause of a certain illness. And I find that it's my moral obligation to sort of get in there with people because that's the root cause. The root cause is not the coke float. Their root cause is that desire, you know, that craving or either to fill a void or, you know, to. It's like that we don't feel validated or whatever it is. It's like, that's the root cause. And it's delicate territory with a lot of people, but it's. I find that it's just like, I wouldn't be doing like this, like this vast, incredibly wise tradition, any service if I didn't, like, poke the bear a little bit when it came to that. And I find it can get a little weird with some clients. But also, most people are. They're like, yeah, you know, they get it. Most. It's like some things happen in the culture. The people are starting to understand, or at least people that come to natural medicine, because a lot of people who come to natural medicine are just exhausted by, like, allopathy, been gaslit, and. Or just been. Yeah, that's a whole other topic. But it's. I think people who come to natural medicine are like more open than the average person.
[52:32] Valerie: You know, since you're dealing with clients, I think when we talked about, you know, the difference between generations. Right. What I found is that millennials are actually pretty in tune with the fact that they have mental health challenges. And it's been interesting talking to people who are slightly older and they might not perceive that they have any of these challenges. So I find with some of the, you know, just some of the older generations that sometimes there are these things that they're unwilling to admit, or maybe it's just like they don't perceive as them having any control over it. Do you find that to be the case as well? And how do you, when you do come across clients who are like, oh, mentally, all is good and you know that there are certain things that are happening. How do you approach that?
[53:26] Michael: I find that everybody is like a Rubik's Q. And I find that with westerners, now that I'm thinking about it, I find that I have to kind of razzle dazzle people with logic first. And so they understand that I'm not some woo woo hippie, but if I like the notion of the prajna prada and the ice cream, everybody kind of gets that. They understand it. They'll nod like, uh huh, uh huh. But even if they don't put it into practice, they sort of get it. But like, with people, especially new clients, I always try to appeal to their reason. Like, and one of my favorite things, and not only mental health, is like with the ayurveda, it's like, you know, the tongue scraping the oil, pulling the abianga and all that. When I recommend these things, when I talk about these things, I always take like, this western approach, right? So, like, that kind of relaxes their mind. So, like with the abhyanga, for example, it's just so rational. And how these people 5000 years ago figured this out, it's like your skin is basically a vital part of your endocrine system. And actually, in women, it manufactures pre menopausal women, it manufactures 75% of your estrogen. In postmenopausal women, 99% of your estrogen is made in your skin. And what does your endocrine system need to produce? Hormones? Fat. Right. So when you give yourself an abhyanga, you're actually giving your endocrine system the vital components it needs to manufacture hormones, right? And so people are like, oh, okay, that makes sense, you know, like, giving myself a massage or just putting a little bit on your thyroid in the morning or something, you know, and tongue scraping, you know, it's like all this AMA that you want to scrape out of your tongue. It actually increases the sensitivity of your taste buds. You know, it can actually help you lose weight because your taste buds are more sensitive and you need, like, less and oil pulling the bacteria. Lipid encapsulated bacteria, they bind to the lipids and the oil, and you switch and you spit it out, and it's actually, you know, Alzheimer's. It's now being identified as bacteria that migrates from your oral cavity or oral microbiome to the brain. So, like, when I start to, like, explain these, like, ancient ayurvedic practices, but in, like, western terminology.
[55:52] Valerie: Yeah.
[55:53] Michael: I find that people's armoring drops, and it's sort of like they become a bit more tenderized to introduce some a bit more esoteric mental health concepts to them, because they trust me that I'm like that. I don't just speak one language of natural health that I can actually communicate in the lingua franca of modernity. So it's like, I find that most people, if they're not super open to it in the beginning, like, once I start to explain it in their language, then they become more trusting, and I think it's really important to, at the same time, meet people where they're at, even though sometimes it's, like, very uncomfortable. And, you know, I listen. There's this one interview I listened. I can only remember who it was with a. It was like some Ayurveda podcast from yesteryear and years ago, and he's in. This guy was talking about how one of his clients kept coming back to see him, and she just never did anything he recommended. And then finally he's like, okay, just wear a tight leather coat to keep your vata warm. And she did it. That's the only thing she ever did. And after multiple visits, she just got a tight leather jacket to keep the, you know, the warmth inside. And so I try to remember that, you know, and, like, I had a. Yeah, I had a client recently who was like, you know, he panic attacks and couldn't sleep and all this stuff, and. And it. And he was a cocaine addict. You know, he did cocaine, like, every night. And, like, from my perspective, it's like, okay, well, just, you know, as in Charka Samhita, removing the cause of an illness is and of itself the best treatment. Right? So, like, in that case, it's like, okay, you know, maybe if you stop the cocaine, you could sleep. Your panic attacks would go away. But it's like he wasn't ready to do that. So do I say use cocaine in the morning instead of the evening? You know, it's like you have to meet people where they're at, and. And it's just astonishing. Everybody is just in different positions. But I will say it's like, one thing, after seeing so many clients now, it's like everybody is just kind of seeking clues to their own well being, their own health. It's like people are just want to be free from suffering, and they just want to have happiness. And the causes of happiness and health. You know, it's like, that's the common thread of everybody. And there's something so beautiful and simple in that, and then you can see that in all of humanity. It's like every single person that you're stuck in traffic with or that you're in, like, the waiting room with, or the in line at the DMV with. It's like everybody just wants to be free of suffering and the causes of suffering, and everybody wants health and happiness, and the causes of health and happiness, without exception. And it's just to see these commonalities in people and. Yeah, I forget what the question was.
[59:18] Valerie: No, that's a really good answer. I think meeting people where they're at. Right. And also adapting it and all of that is a really key way to start the conversation. And for me, it's like, I want everyone to know that they're held in a safe space and that, like, they can come to me with whatever, but, you know, when they're not ready to do that, like, also just having the space there is fine. It took me one year for one client of mine. I would meet with her every month. She did not do a single recommendation for one year. And then after a year, she finally took herbs. So, you know, sometimes it is literally just holding space.
[59:58] Michael: Totally. Sometimes people just want to be heard and listened to, you know? And that's. That's it. And sometimes people just want diet. They just want doshas, and they just want to know that kale is high in oxalates or something. It's like they. That's all they want. And, you know, there are people. I find they're in the minority, those people, but, yeah, you have to meet people where they're at at the end of the day.
[01:00:28] Valerie: All right. I think that's a wonderful place to end today's conversation. I'm sure there's a lot more we could talk about, but maybe in another time. And yeah, I just want to really thank you for sharing your story, for bringing your perspective and your. And I hear a lot of passion with what you're doing now. So you're just sharing a story of refining passion and all of that, too. So yeah, it's been a wonderful conversation. Thank you.
[01:00:53] Michael: Michael awesome Valerie. Thanks for having me. That was super fun.
[01:01:03] Valerie: Hey there. If you've been tuning in and find yourself wondering how you can also rise from the ashes and live your best life, then I've got something special for you. This podcast from the Ashes is a project of intrepid wellness where we are dedicated to inspiring people like you to take that next step towards a more vibrant life. I'd love to invite you to schedule a free 30 minutes connection and clarity call with me. It's the perfect opportunity to say hello, share your goals for the future with someone who wants to see you thrive and get you one step closer to living your best life. The link to book is in the show notes. Looking forward to meeting you soon.
